Using DNA to find Goths

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co at ...> wrote:
>
> all that sounds like were talking about people today.....i hardly 
think the goths were goths if they were mixing with other 
groups....maybe a few mixed with others......one thing about the 
groups of those days, particularly the germanic and celtic groups of 
those times was their ability to self polarize themselves.......oscar
> 


Hi Oscar,

the Goths were heavily mixed up with other ethnic groups. We know 
this from various contemporary sources, which stated that many Roman 
provincials, runaway slaves and miners had joined the Visigoths and 
had become Goths themselves before they were driven into Spain. 

An academic discussion of the degree to which the Goths were mixed 
with other ethnic groups can be found in:

"The Visigoths from the Migration Period to the Seventh Century: An 
Ethnographic Perspective (Studies in Historical Archaeoethnology)"

The most conservative estimate in this study is that about 50% of the 
Goths were of non-Gothic origin, while other authors assume that this 
share was much higher. 

The Visigoths were essentially an army, led by a Gothic royal house. 
An army without a real homeland is in contant need of new recruit. 
There is no way that the natural birth rate within this group can 
constantly replenish those warriors that perished in the many 
battles. Thus, the Goths would have been rather studid not to welcome 
people who could reenforce their military strength. And again, this 
is a proven fact and not really subject to debate.

Cheers,
Dirk


















> faltin2001 <d.faltin at ...> wrote:          
> 
> Hi Sturla,
> 
> could you explain this project in a bit more detail please?
> 
> I think one big problem that you need to bear in mind is that Goths 
> are not a biological grouping, but a political grouping. We know, 
for 
> example, that the Visigoths who arrived in Gaul and Spain included 
> many Roman provincials, runaway slaves and disgruntled miners. 
> 
> If you look back at Gothic individuals about whom we know a little 
> bit about their family background it is striking that most of them 
> had mixed ethnic backgrounds. Jordanes was apprently partly of 
Alanic 
> origin, Theoderic´s mother seems to have been a Roman woman. For a 
> migrant group like the Goths this was probably a typical feature. 
> When the Goths appeared first in the wars agains Philip I Arabs, 
they 
> seemed to have been allies of the Carpi, a people that then 
> disappeared from the records. The Carpi, an Illyrian or Thrakian 
> people were like absorbed into the Goths and there are probably 
more 
> small non-Germanic groups that were absorbed by the Goths. 
> 
> In fact, historians believe if the Goths hadn't had the ability and 
> the attraction to absorbe other ethnic and political groups they 
> would have vanished long before the 5th century. 
> 
> In this sense, I would be interested to know what exactly Gothic 
DNA 
> should be like? Even if you extracted DNA from a skeleton that was 
> buried with Gothic or East Germanic grave goods, how can you know 
> what political identity this person once had. It would be fantastic 
> if what you propose is possible, but so far I have my doubts.
> 
> Cheers
> Dirk
> 
> --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "sturlus" <sellingvaag@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Hi,
> > this is my first post here, but I've been following this forum 
for 
> quite
> > some time now.
> > 
> > I have started Explico (www.explicofund.org 
> <http://www.explicofund.org>
> > , funded by Norwegian investors) which is a foundation using DNA 
to
> > trace Human migrations, similar to National Geographics The 
> Genographic
> > Project <https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/> and to 
> the
> > Bradshaw foundations Journey of Mankind
> > <http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/journey/> .
> > 
> > We have started in the Migration period and I am particularly 
> interested
> > in finding traces from Goths in the living populations of today, 
at
> > least we'll try to find out if there is any or not. We'll be 
going 
> to
> > Sevastapol, travel along the coast to Mariupol and the to Rostov 
on 
> Don,
> > collecting DNA and searching in particular among the Greek 
cultural
> > organisations (for instance in Mariupol).
> > 
> > I am in need of:
> > 
> > * Tips on where to collect DNA! (Places/Histories) * Local
> > contacts along our route: universities, students, possible useful
> > assistants, politicians (local authorities), Genealogy 
> organisations,
> > Greek cultural organisations and any others whom could help us. *
> > Anything else that might aid us! * Other theories and peoples we
> > could / should look for in Russia/Ukraine aroung the Black Sea or 
> for
> > that matter other places in Europe/Central Asia, using DNA.
> > 
> > 
> > For example, Ualarauans post on Gothic burials in Upper Don
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/8942> is 
> interesting,
> > in Ksizovo, Lipetsk region. The possibilities of finding remnants 
> today
> > of Goths on Don might seem slim. However perhaps there exists some
> > communities along the Don, where descendants from Greeks or Goths 
> traces
> > can be found.
> > 
> > This year we will also search in Northern Spain for Visigoths and 
> in the
> > Atlas mountains of North Africa among the Berber tribes for 
possible
> > Vandal populations. We will also take DNA from Scandinavians and 
> other
> > peoples living in the Baltic area. Next year we will expand our
> > expeditions, but I see now that the Black Sea area will be of 
> special
> > interest to us.
> > 
> > Thanks for any comment!
> > Also send me an email: sturlae@ <mailto:sturlae@> , if
> > anything.
> > 
> > 
> > Sturla Ellingvåg
> > Oslo, Norway
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
> 
>          
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>






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