Poety to translate?

Fri Mar 24 00:48:25 UTC 2006

Hái Guenther,

Great job on the Grail!

German indeed has a word Falter, which shows lack of reduplicated
syllable in the noun (if that's what it is here). Here is a somewhat
interesting discussion of the word on a conlang archive which draws
many comparisons highlighting the repetitive tendencies for this word
in various human languages:
http://www.mail-archive.com/conlang@yahoogroups.com/msg00517.html

Incidentally, I found in Orel's work that he suggests the original
form was "fenfe-faldjan", i.e. "Fivefolder" which strikes me as rather
more difficult to connect semantically.

I cannot speculate on what the Gothic form may have been for this old
Germanic vocabular asset which succumbed to replacement quite early
on. Still I must not forget to remind us of the fact that, whatever
its true etymology, Wulfila wrote the word for fly, flight, capable of
flight, etc. with a thl- initial cluster, therefore in the poem, if we
take the insect as related to the root, perhaps it should be
*THl(i)ugo (< Gmc. *fl[e]ugon or *thl- "Fly or Moth"; or, Go. *THlugi
< ? *flugjan "flying insect" [Orel])? It is unfortunate we cannot know
precisely how this variation occured. Orel corrects to fl-, Koebler
seems to suggest both possibilities (except for THlahsjan ?).

-Moderator

--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans at ...> wrote:
>
> Golja Thuk, Thiudan!
>    
>   Thanks for your reply. *Fifald(r)o is great! Talking about this,
is the first syllable a reduplication? If so, the spelling should be
*faifaldro (with ai [e]) perhaps. But as far as I know (and that's not
a long distance) there are no nouns with a (vivid) reduplication
attested in Gothic, are they? And how is it (if it is) connected with
the stem represented in Gothic falthan (cf. nhd. Falter : falten –
maybe a later association?). The verb at least IS a reduplicative one
(Past tense: faifalth).
>   About the "Grail" it might be of some interest to speculate.
>   If we postulate a loanword from MLatin, then forms like *gradels,
*gradaleis or whatever more would do. But if trying to "find" a Gothic
pendant the foremost question that arises is what the Grail actually
was (is) – a cup, a stone, a gem etc. Here we are threatened to get
lost in a rather off-topic discussion that traces down to the Middle
Age, moreover this vagueness seems to be an integral part of the legend.
>   Let us proceed from the offered text © Michael Adams where it is a
cup. Then stikls is the first that comes to the mind. Checking up its
attestations in Ulfilan codices we come across both sacral and profane
usages (cf. John 18:11 "stikl thanei gaf mis atta, niu drigkau thana?"
and esp. Cor. I. 10:16 ff. "stikls thiuthiqissais thanei gaweiham, niu
gamainduths blothis fraujins ist?" versus Mk. 7:4 "daupeinins stikle
jah aurkje jah katile jah ligre" et sim.). I guess, to refer more
precisely to the denotate we could try and "find" some composita with
-stikls as the second element, e. g.:
>   *weihastikls "the holy cup",
>   *xristustikls "Christ's cup", or even
>   *blothastikls "blood cup" though the latter sounds somewhat
"vampiric", doesn't it? Cf. however Cor. I. 11:25 "sa stikls so niujo
triggwa ist in meinamma blotha" > *triggwastikls?
>   Could we then draw hence some parallels to Pre-Christian items
attested in other Germanic areas, e. g. ON. (Eyrbyggja saga)
hlautbolli "cup of sacrificial blood used in rituals" etc. and thus
make our reconstruction more "historically verifiable"?
>    
>   Now let me offer you my attempt to translate the whole verse (I'm
afraid I again digressed too far from the original)
>    
>   THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
>   one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
>   for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
>   sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
>   and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
>   I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
>   shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
>   sweet, and to know this, I quest.
>    
>   STIKLIS SOKNS
>   Ungastoths hvarbo [ik] bi hveilain ni saurgands
>   Sinteino sokjands stilk thana weihan
>   *Laiwin galeiks saei laisteith tho stairnon
>   Merjandein *mariwig faura maurginis uhtwon
>   – Swiknana stikl ni bisauleith manna
>   Afguths jah unwairths, arwjo skal sokjan –
>   Framis nu farja bi fulginai mundrein
>   Und thana andi, than aggiljus haitand mik
>   Skaunjaim stibnom. Stikl than andnima
>   Dragk thata *diurjo drigka us thamma
>   Junda tho aiweinon aigi sa wairtha
>   Libains galauba – laun this sokjandins
>    
>    
>   Some remarks
>    
>   *laiwin is Dat. Sg. from *laiwa M. -an "boat", "small ship" – a
hypothetical Finnish borrowing (Fin. laiva, Est. laev "idem") into
Gothic when crossing the Baltic Sea. In fact it's highly improbable
that Goths being evidently a sea-shore nation experienced in seafaring
already before the migration started would adopt marine terminology
from elsewhere. Here it's just for the sake of rhyme.
>   To compare the seeker with a ship that follows its way through the
dark of the night guided by the Pole Star (here "so stairno") would
seem to fit the supposed "language consciousness" of Viking Goths
better than the "Knight on a Quest" motive which is rather medieval.
All the above-said can easily be nonsense since I know too little
about the subject.
>    
>   *mariwigs "sea-way" (for mari- as the first element cf. mari-saiws).
>   "merjan wig" for "to show the way" sounds somewhat alien. A
variant is "Mundondein mans sis faura maurginis uhtwon", i.e. "that
(sc. the Star) looks down upon humans before the day is breaking"
(problems with word-order, I see).
>    
>   *diureis adj. -ja "precious" (= ME dear)
>    
>   Excuse my limited vocabulary, up to the nearest time all I
disposed of was a brief glossary in W. Braune's Gotische Grammatik
(13. Auflage. – Halle/Saale: Max Niemeyer Verlag, 1952). Now looking
into Streitberg's (best thanks to Project Wulfila) I tell to myself
"And you thought you know the language!"
>    
>   Craving for your opinions and comments
>   Ualarauans
>    
>   P. S. By the way, I heard there were authors that assumed a closer
bond between actual Visigoths and the Grail legends. Since I did not
read the books I can not judge if this idea is scientifically grounded
or is it just a fancy of historical fiction writers.
> 
> 
> thiudans <thiudans at ...> wrote:  --- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com,
Guenther Ramm <ualarauans@> wrote:
> 
> Hails!
> 
> Nice translation & alliteration!
> No grammar comments now.
> I like flower-fly, nice invention.
> The first line has many syllables so I will offer a shorter one for
> possibility of longer notes:
> 
> >   O *blomafliugo waliso, thuei windaleiko ufaro airthai nu rinnis
> 
> O *fifaldo waliso, (hwaiwa) theinamma winda-staigon galeiko
> 
> "how like that wind-road (you ride)". I thought riding is implicit in
> "road" perhaps.
> 
> If Grail shall be a borrowing = Gradéls-. Else, the attested word
> Stikls will do fine.
> 
> 
> 
> cheers,
> The Moderator
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Hails, *Garazdans!
> >   Would you mind another translation attempt? Not always a
> word-for-word one, of cause, but instead I tried to "reconstruct" here
> and there some of alliterative rhyme. All those clumsy "neologisms"
> are mine (just slapdash invented and without any claim to get into the
> waurdahuzd).
> >   By the way, I would be very thankful for every hint about what
> Gothic "butterfly" or rather "Grail" be like.
> >    
> >   BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
> >   ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
> >   you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
> >   currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
> >   hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
> >   held but never let free.
> >    
> >    
> >   O *blomafliugo waliso, thuei windaleiko ufaro airthai nu rinnis
> >   Ibai sa fahands thuk frathjan duginnith
> >   Hva maht ist haldis nibai hafta thuk fastan
> >   Frijos sind *fliugons, thozei fairrathro brahtedun
> >   Windos thai waiandans fram waihstam this midjungardis
> >   Ni du fragiban thos gumane handum 
> >   Wai thamma wiljandin winda gatamjan
> >   Draum faurdammjan in daubithos hairtins
> >    
> >   Looking forward a scornful sneer of connoisseurs
> >    
> > Ualarauans
> > 
> > Michael Adams <abrigon@> wrote:  I am learning to ask first, so I
> do not waste peoples bandwidth
> > to much..
> > 
> > Here goes: (two or more)
> > 
> > BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE: Oh sweet butterfly, so like the wind you
> > ride, to catch you is to know you but in this all I do is still
> > you and hold you captive, butterflies are free, to know the
> > currents of wind, to fly afar, never to be held by mortal
> > hands. For in the holding is the tragedy, for what are dreams
> > held but never let free.
> > 
> > THE GRAIL: I seem to ramble from place to place, never staying
> > one in any one place, ever searching, like a knight on quest,
> > for that grail oh so dear, so close but oh so far, almost in
> > sight, but never visible, I go on and on, until the end is here,
> > and it draws near, and I can hear the calls of angels sweet, and
> > I shall finally drink of that cup, so rich and rare a draught it
> > shall be, for in the end, the cup will hold life, and life is so
> > sweet, and to know this, I quest.
> > 
> > VASHTI OF THE FLAME RED TRESSES: Oh my dearest lady mine, for
> > your passing has emptied my heart, but the memories of you will
> > be with me forever. The joy we felt in our youth, the times we
> > spent in our middle years. The things we did here, there and
> > all. Friends we made,  times we spent, even when angry we did it
> > in love. How the feeling I do feel at your passing, for you my
> > lady of hair so red was me, and I you, a half has gone away and
> > left me with feelings of what now, not to replace but the
> > feeling of what now? Who can I turn to when I need love,
> > carrying, a gentle hand a soft caress, to be told I was wrong
> > and the love to show me gently. To be there for me, and I for
> > you. Bye my dear lady of flaming hair that lighted up the
> > darkness of my life, for before you there was darkness and now
> > what? Farewell my dear until that day with Gods/fates grace I
> > can join you once again, to walk hand in hand, arm in arm,
> > carress to carress, feel to feel and knowing we will be together
> > always..
> > 
> > Mike Adams
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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