Aiwropais Ahvos

?????? ???????? vegorov at IPIRAN.RU
Mon May 15 12:42:59 UTC 2006 

Fredrik,

The Bulgars emerged from the West Turkic kaganate and created circa 6th c. AD a realm on the North Caucasus, actually near downer Volga, conquered later by Khasars. Pushed in the 7th c. out from the Khasar kaganate, the divided and migrated in two direction: northward to the Middle Volga (conditionally the modern Tatars) and westward to Danube (conditionally the modern Bulgarians). The latter division moved, under leadership of khan Asparukh, partially along the way passed by the Goths, but they could not come up with the Goths because were late for a couple of centuries.

Vladimir

-----Original Message-----
From: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l at yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Fredrik
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 2:49 PM
To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Aiwropais Ahvos


Does the name bulgar has anything to do with the river name Volga?
If I remember right the bulgars came from volga.
If this is so, when did the bulgars occur in history? At the time of 
the goths, and did the bulgars and goths ever seen eachother?
What would Bulgaria be in gothic?
(One etymology of bulgar is turkic bulgha = sable.)


--- In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, Guenther Ramm <ualarauans at ...> wrote:
>
> Hails, Vladimir!
>   Thanks a lot for your correction! I feel defeated at the "Long 
River" :)
>   The form Itil as far as I know is Turkic (?) and therefore also 
too late to get into Gothic. What was the population of the Lower 
Volga basin in the 3rd - 4th centuries? Some place Alans east of 
Ostrogoths up to the time of the Hunnish invasion - could not they 
intermediate between whatever name of Volga and 
Ermanaricus' "sagacious mapmakers"? You know there's the people of 
the Ossets in North Caucasus which are direct linguistic descendants 
of East Alans and which are said to still keep in their epics 
reminiscences of their fights with a people "GUT". Does anybody know 
how they call Volga? The names of Don, Dnepr and Dnestr (and maybe 
Danube) at least, seem to come from North-Iranian, i.e. Scytho-
Sarmatian and Alanic speech, and, note, today's Ossetic _don_ means 
just "river" or "water". This river row could be Gothic *Danus, 
*Danaprus, *Danastrus (in fact there's no sure evidence of u-stems 
for any of them, Jordanes has Danaper, Danaster and similarly other 
writers of
>  the time, IE proto-form *danu- could not be of any effect here, 
unless we presume there were "sagacious Gothic linguists" at work as 
well :)
>   Still, I'd like *Dulgjo to be used for any of the East-European 
rivers and surely there's a lot of scholarly literature on the Eddic 
Dylgja and the precise localization of that legendary battle between 
Angantyr and Hloedhr. I thought they fought (I mean the proto-event 
of the saga) somewhere between Don and Volga, on the Eastern frontier 
of the Ostrogothic sphere, and the Goths had actually to lose that 
battle (ca. 375 AD). This Volga-Don "Mesopotamia" could be called 
there Dunheidhr, Gothic *Dunahaithi...
>   I know a Finnish word valkea "white". Is Russian vlaga not rather 
to be connected with NHG Wolke "cloud", Lett. velgme "moisture" etc.? 
The Finnish form of Volkhov seems to look like Olhava, and that could 
be Gothicized into *Alhawi "a river of a sacred place" (?), of cause, 
without claiming to be a possible historic name (that was too far 
even for Ermanaricus :)
>   Ualarauans
> 
> åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov at ...> wrote:
>   Hi Ualarauans!
> 
> With the "long river" Volga there are two aberrations, 
> both spatial and temporal. The name Volga related initially 
> only to the upper part of the river and was etymologically 
> close to the name of another river of that region Volhov. 
> However, the etymology is not defined exactly. The most 
> probable supposition is a Finnish word with meaning moisture, 
> which was also borrowed by Russian as _vlaga_. Extension of 
> the name Volga to the downer river named earlier Itil took 
> place somewhere in the 16-17 centuries. Hermanaricus and his 
> subjects had to be very sagacious to foreknow this for 
> thousand years ahead. Anyhow, the origin of the name Volga 
> is not Slavic.
> 
> Btw. I seem _Albs_ should be pronounced [alfs] with declension 
> changes to [alvis] etc.
> 
> Regards,
> Vladimir
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com [mailto:gothic-l at yahoogroups.com]On
> Behalf Of ualarauans
> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 11:31 AM
> To: gothic-l at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [gothic-l] Aiwropais Ahvos
> 
> 
> In gothic-l at yahoogroups.com, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:
> > the final
> devoicing rule (AuslautsverhÄrtung) doesn't apply when 'b', 'g', 'd'
> follow another consonant, so my guess for the nominative singular
> would be *Albs.
> 
> Yes, of cause. Thanks. Hence a question - how you pronounce this: 
> [alvs], [albs] or maybe even [alps]? Intervocalic -b- I like most 
to 
> have as [v], but what I like or dislike that's no argument. We have 
> Naubaimbair for November and a lot of Latin renderings like Liuva, 
> Erelieva etc., but what about -b- in the position you described, 
> i.e. after a consonant? And what is Silbanus for SILOUANOS - 
leaning 
> on Gothic silba? But this happened to be written by Romans as 
> Silva... Does the rule work only when -b- stands between two 
> consonants? And what is then the pronunciation? I guess it could be 
> again a question of chronology.
> Talking about rivers I think we should not at once translate or 
> transliterate their present name, but to look first if there's any 
> possible evidence of how the river was called at the time the 
actual 
> Goths could reach, or hear of, it.
> For example, French Seine was Lat.-Celt. Sequana. Was it still so 
in 
> the 5th century when Alareiks sa Fruma and his Visigoths came first 
> to the West? Or maybe it was already some compromise late-Latin / 
> early-Romance form (*Seghwana?) which could be adopted by them 
> undergoing some folk-etymological changes? Or perhaps there had 
been 
> a West-Germanic name of the river which the Goths received from 
> their Frankish and Alemannic cousins and rivals? I'm tempted to 
call 
> it *Saihvana F. -o (with a consonant shift), but firstly, if my 
> Latin dictionary doesn't lie, the -e- in Sequana was a long one; 
> secondly, the time of the shift was long over; and, thirdly, wasu 
so 
> ahva bi sunjai SAIHVANA? (was this river really SEEN by them?). So, 
> *Seqana, *Se(g)wana or something like?
> Here's another question. As you know continental Gaulish was mostly 
> a p-Celtic language (i.e. every PIE kw- turned to p- unlike q-
> Celtic). The PIE stem *sekw- "to follow", represented by Lat. 
sequor 
> and Goth. saihvan (lit. "to follow with the eyes"), as it is 
> commonly held, was additionally borrowed by Goths from some p-
Celtic 
> dialect as siponeis "a disciple" < "a follower". Is Sequana of the 
> same family? And why not *Sepana? I see it's Gothic not "Celtic" 
> list, but if this name belongs to the same stem, it could perhaps 
be 
> possible to postulate some parallel, not borrowed, form in Germanic 
> and, thus, Gothic.
> Let's travel over to another side of Europe and consider Volga. It 
> seems to me very probable that the Goths, this time the Ostrogoths, 
> had all chances to see it or at least to know about it at the time 
> of Ermanaricus' Greater Gothic Reich (((smile))). Maybe the trace 
of 
> it is ON Dylgja (Hlöðskviða 26, 28) < Goth. *Dulgjo F. -on, which 
> could be a phonetically correct borrowing of a supposed Old Slavic 
> alternative name *Dlgaja (l is vocalic), lit. "the long (river)". 
> The actual Russian Volga is sometimes supposed to be borrowed from 
> Baltic *Ilga with the same meaning ("long"). Well, that seems 
rather 
> complicated... As a variant we could use a partly etymologized 
> loanword from Russian like *Wulgi F. -jo (cf. ON ylgr "she-wolf").
> Ualarauans
> 
> 
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