[gothic-l] Translating the New Testament into Gothic

Wed Jan 14 18:49:46 UTC 2015

Your confusion about the cases of the first verse may have been caused by the use of a possessive pronoun - "seina". It is used when the subject of the clause possesses. Here, the disciples are approaching so they are the subject. In this case, we use a personal pronoun in genitive case - "ïs".
Jah gasitands, atiddjedun du imma siponjos is.  (or something like that) 
Fun fact: In Scanian, we pronounce "ei" in "sein/seina" with a diphthong of [ ḙɪ ] - short e gliding into a long i. I didn't find time to comment on the sound file of Alice in Wonderland before it was removed but I think it was well done, agreeing with how grammars say it may have been pronounced. And I don't think there is any particular reason to think Scanian preserves the original pronunciation, but it agrees with Gothic spelling so you can pick it up if you like to.  B)
/Basti   

  On Wednesday, January 14, 2015 4:15 PM, "Dicentis a roellingua at gmail.com [gothic-l]" <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com> wrote:

1. jah gafastands manageins, urrais in fairgunja. Jah sitands, gaqemun du Imma siponjos seinans.

2. jah uslukands munþs seins, laisida ins, qiþands,
3. audagai unledans ahmin, unte im ist þiudangardi himine.
4. audagai wopjandans, unte gaþlaihanda.
5. audagai mildans, unte arbjand airþa.
6. audagai gredagans jah þaursiþans faur garaihtein, auk usfullaina.
7. audagai armahairtins jah armahairtein ataugainda. 
8. audagai hrainjahairtans, unte guþ saihvand.
9. audagai friþubriggands, unte sunus Gudis haitanda.
10. audagai wrekans faur garaihtein, unte in þiudangardi himine.
11. audagai þu, iþ andbeitand þuk, jah wrikand, qiþanduh dwilawaurda du þus liugands, faur mik.
12. unte mizdo þeina ist mikila in himinam. Auk wrekun praufetuns faura þus.

Op woensdag 14 januari 2015 heeft Dicentis a <roellingua at gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
> One correction:
>
>
>
> The disciples are of course accusative.
>
>
> Chapter 5 Matthew
>
>
> 1. jah gafastands manageins, urrais in fairgunja. Jah sitands, gaqemun du Imma siponjos seinans.
> 2. jah uslukands munþs seins, laisida ins, qiþands,
> 3. audagai audagai unledans ahmin, unte im ist þiudangardi himine.
> 4. audagai wopjandans, unte gaþlaihanda.
> 5. audagai mildans, unte arbjand airþa.
> 6. audagai gredagans jah þaursiþans faur garaihtein, auk usfullaina.
>
> Op woensdag 14 januari 2015 heeft Dicentis a <roellingua at gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
>> Chapter 5 Matthew
>>
>>
>> 1. jah gafastands manageins, urrais in fairgunja. Jah sitands, gaqemun du Imma siponjos seinai.
>> 2. jah uslukands munþs seins, laisida ins, qiþands,
>> 3. audagai audagai unledans ahmin, unte im ist þiudangardi himine.
>> 4. audagai wopjandans, unte gaþlaihanda.
>> 5. audagai mildans, unte arbjand airþa.
>> 6. audagai gredagans jah þaursiþans faur garaihtein, auk usfullaina.
>>
>> Op woensdag 14 januari 2015 heeft Dicentis a <roellingua at gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
>>> Matthew 12-24
>>> Matthew 25, 1-37
>>> Matthew 26, 3-65
>>>
>>> 26. sa sunus mans atgibada du ushramjan. 3 þanuh . . . . 65 . . . . þaurbum weitwode? sai, nu gahausideduþ þo wajamerein is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Op woensdag 14 januari 2015 heeft Dicentis a <roellingua at gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
>>>> I just found out that a lot of Bible parts are missing, some sentences of the 4 major books are missing too. If anyone is willing to actively help, that would be great. I want to thank thiudans for all his hard work, thanks to him there is at least one big major part in the bible, written by Paul, which doesn't need translation anymore. Here are some things which need translation:
>>>>
>>>> Matthew chapter 2 - 4, chapter 1 is already translated by matthew carver.
>>>> Chapter 5, phrases 1-15
>>>> Chapter 7, 1-12
>>>> Chapter 10, 1-23
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Op dinsdag 13 januari 2015 heeft Dicentis a <roellingua at gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
>>>>> I made improvements to the Corinthians text and it's in line with the Greek text now, I also looked up most Greek words with Wulfila.be to get a correct outcome:
>>>>> 1 Jah ik qumans du izwis, broþrum, ni qam bi maht waurdis aiþþau handugein, merjands izwis weitwodein Gudis. 
>>>>> 2 Ni auk ik gawalida waiht witan bi izwis inuh Iesu Xristu, jah sah ushramiþs. 
>>>>> 3 Jah ik in unhailja jah ogjands jah reirands abraba was miþ izwis; 
>>>>> 4 jah waurd mein jah wailamerein meina ni was in gakunda mannan handugeins waurda, ak in taikneina Ahmins jah mahteis; 
>>>>> 5 ei galaubeins izwara ni sijai in handugein manne, ak in mahta Gudis. 
>>>>> 6 Iþ handugei rodjam bi usfullidedans; iþ handugei ni aiwis þis, nih reikinonde þis ionis manne inuh maht. 
>>>>> 7 Akei rodjam handugei Gudis in runa, ains affilhands, saei Guþ satida faura aiwam faur wulþau unsaris; 
>>>>> 8 Saei ni reikinonde aiwis þis kunþa. Iþ auk kunþedun, ni waurþi Fraujan wulþaus ushramidedun. 
>>>>> 9 Akei swa gameliþ ist, Saei augon ni saƕ, jah auson ni hausida, jah in hairtin mans ni urran þoei satida Guþ þaim frijondam Is.
>>>>> 10  Iþ auk andhulida Guþ þairh Ahman. Sa auk ahma allos waihts sokida, jah diupei Gudis. 
>>>>> 11 Saei auk kuneiþu mans waihts, inuh ahman mans, saei in imma? Swa jah waihts Gudis ni manna kuneiþ, niba ahman Gudis.
>>>>> 12 Iþ weis, ni ahman fairƕaus andnemum, ak ahma, saei fram Guda, ei kunnaima waihts þairh Guþ gibanos du unsis.
>>>>> 13 In þammei jah weis ni rodjam laisida þairh mans handugeins waurda, ak in laisidaim Ahmins; in ahmeinaim haidum ahmeinos waihts fraþanos. 
>>>>> 14 Wists iþ manna ni andnimiþ þoei ahmins Gudis; Dwalos auk Imma sind, jah ni mahts ist ins witan, ahmeino auk gasokidai sind.
>>>>> 15 Iþ saei ahmeina gasokeiþ allis, aþþan is silba ni manna gasokeiþ. 
>>>>> 16 saei auk kunþa muneis Is? Saei laiseiþ ina? Aþþan weis ahman Xristaus habam.
>>>>> used source: http://biblehub.com/interlinear/study/1_corinthians/2.htm
>>>>> 2015-01-09 15:59 GMT+01:00 Dicentis a <roellingua at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just asked permission to add those phrases to the project. I 'll wait until I get a reply before I add them to the Bible Reconstruction Project.
>>>>>> 2015-01-09 15:52 GMT+01:00 Dicentis a <roellingua at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I found an online reconstruction of the Codex Gissensis in an article by Magnus Snaedal: https://www.academia.edu/871989/The_Gothic_Text_of_Codex_Gissensis
>>>>>>> I 'll add it to the Bible Reconstruction project files.
>>>>>>> 2015-01-09 15:33 GMT+01:00 Dicentis a <roellingua at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks Edmund, I will translate all instances of wisdom with handugei and when Koebler mentions a word with  * ?, I 'll not use it, as you explain quite well why these words can be misleading. 
>>>>>>>> I have already translated this part of Corinthians. I 'll take a look over it all again and look up the Greek words from the Greek version in Wulfila.be, in that way I can check which words corresponds best to the words in this part of Corinthians.
>>>>>>>> Especially for future purposes, I think it's worth it to try to translate the missing parts, so although not everything is attested, I don't think that we should lose our motivation to translate the rest, as a full New Testament in Gothic might be valuable to future generations, especially if the wish of some of us to have church services in Gothic changes in more than a dream and can be realized, we'll need a full new testament, although some parts are reconstructed.
>>>>>>>> 2015-01-09 0:50 GMT+01:00 edmundfairfax at yahoo.ca [gothic-l] <gothic-l at yahoogroups.com>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One of the (many) problems with Koebler's dictionary is the overanaylsis of words and then the listing of the broken-down elements separately as if there were in fact attested independent elements. (Since 'undar-' is a well-attested morpheme, he assumes then that weisei must have been a separate element.) The danger in this approach becomes most apparent when applied to a more familiar language, namely, Mod. English, such that one analyzes 'werewolf' as consisting of two independent nouns, and then list 'were' as an independent substantive, which it, of course, is not; or alternatively take 'cranberry' and list 'cran' as a separate noun as well. Such a method is outrightly misleading about usage. There is simply no guarantee that weisei was an independent word in Wulfilian Gothic. And it seems unwarranted to use it as such simply because of Koebler's questionable lexicographical practices.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As to 'frodei,' it translates 'sophia' (L2,52) only once; more often it corresponds to 'intellect, understanding, sensibleness, prudence.' And 'snutrei' is extant only twice. In contrast, 'handugei' translates 'sophia' eighteen times. Thus, it seems fairly clear that the word of choice to translate 'sophia' / 'wisdom' is in fact handugei.
>>>>>>>>> Edmund
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ---In Gothic-L at yahoogroups.com, <anheropl0x at ...> wrote :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If I might point out, Edmund, Köbler's dictionary does have handugei as wisdom. As well as snutrei, (theoretical) weisei, and frodei.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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