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<p>Hails Rydwlf,<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, Rydwlf <mitsuhippon@<wbr>...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> 1. Villemann went to the river - Villemann(a) iddja (is) at <br>
ahvįi.<br>
> I wonder what a good translation for the names Villemann and <br>
Magnhild would<br>
> be...<br>
<br>
I don't know what the name means in Norwegian, so I'm only guessing. <br>
If it's ville "will" + mann "man", then Gothic *Wiljamanna would do. <br>
If the first element is from ON villr "wild", then perhaps *Wilžimanna.<br>
<br>
Magnhild is most likely Go. *Maginahildi F.-jo (gen. Maginahildjos)<br>
<br>
> 3. There he wanted to play the gold harp - thar wilda ei <br>
gulthaharpon slahan -<br>
> I have used the construction "wiljan ei" as it appears in some <br>
places of > the<br>
> corpus, meaning "want to".<br>
<br>
There's a subordinate clause after ei in such cases, not a mere <br>
infinitive: *wilda ei slahai... (subjunctive)<wbr>, lit. "he wished that he <br>
would slay..." (rather than "play":). It's a construction most usual <br>
with languages which have no morphological infinitive, like some of <br>
the Balkan language alliance. A Goth would simply say: *wilda <br>
slahan..., I think.<br>
<br>
> 4. Because the runes didn't augur well - unte runos ni brahtedun <br>
awi -<br>
> After considering using the verbes gahaitan, fauragahaitan used <br>
as "promise",<br>
> I have decided using a construction of the type "because the runes <br>
didn't bring<br>
> luck". For "luck" I have used *awi, sn. and for "rune", runa, sf. <br>
although maybe<br>
> runastafs, sm. would be more correct.<br>
<br>
We've had recently a nice discussion on both these lexemes when <br>
translating Hįvamįl into Gothic at Theudiskon. Proceeding from known <br>
elder-runic examples a construction Go. *awi giban was proposed in the <br>
sense "to give auspices". I'd also prefer Go. stafs for "runic letter" <br>
rather than runa attested solely as "secret", "mystery" (though I <br>
found myself in a minority with this opinion over there :). *Runastafs <br>
would be a fine compromise, I think.<br>
<br>
> 6. He could play the gold harp brilliantly - saruba (hadugba?) <br>
mahta (is)<br>
> slahan gulthaharpon<br>
> Here I have formed the adverb saruba from #sarus, skillfull. <br>
Maybe it's more<br>
> convenient to use handugba from handugs, clever, wise.<br>
<br>
An adverb of handugs would probably look like *handugo (no examples <br>
though). The word could have had a broader meaning than that is <br>
attested, cf. OCSl loanword xondogś "skillful", "experienced" < Go. <br>
handugs.<br>
<br>
> I keep using slahan to<br>
> mean hit in the sense of playing the harp by hitting the <br>
strings. "Is" would be<br>
> emphatic and is used only for rhythmic purposes (although at this <br>
stage the<br>
> whole translation is not very precise at rhythm).<br>
> <br>
> 7. He played it gently, he played it clever - ita sloh mith ---, <br>
ita sloh mith<br>
> handugei.<br>
> I have used the structure "he played it with gentleness, he <br>
played it with<br>
> cleverness" which is more akin to the original "han leika med lente, <br>
han leika<br>
> med list". Another option for my translation would be using the <br>
subject instead<br>
> of the object as I do, that is, using "is" instead of "ita". Anyway, <br>
I need a<br>
> noun for "gentleness" or something similar. I have tried deriving a <br>
name from<br>
> lintheis, gentle, nice, soft: would it be "linthei"? <br>
<br>
There's an adjective mildeis meaning smth like that. A derived nomen <br>
abstractum is mildiža, an adverb to be reconstructed *mildjo or <br>
*mildjaba. Also, it's dative after miž, so if you like to keep this <br>
way of saying you should probably put it miž mildižai. Note that <br>
leika:lente:<wbr>list do alliterate in the original. To say 'laikan miž <br>
listim (attested pl.)' would mean a quite different thing in Gothic, <br>
though.<br>
<br>
> Also, for "cleverness"<wbr>, I<br>
> have derived "handugei" from handugs, clever, wise.<br>
<br>
If you use handugo above for "skillfully"<wbr>, maybe it's better to go <br>
with a synonym here, e.g. snutrei?<br>
<br>
> 8. The bird calmed down on the green tree - fugls anaqal (?) ana <br>
gronamma<br>
> bagma.<br>
> Used the past form of *anaqilan, sv.IV, become calm. Also the !<br>
groneis<br>
> neologism invented by J.R.R.Tolkien, if I am not wrong.<br>
<br>
Not intending to dispute with J.R.R., I daresay he has not purely <br>
invented *groneis but reconstructed it after the other Old Germanic <br>
languages. And I guess he would agree that a dat. sg. masc. of groneis <br>
be gronjamma. <br>
<br>
> 9. He played it gently, he played it loud - ita sloh mith --- , <br>
ita sloh mith<br>
> thuta (?)-<br>
> Same as above concerning "softness". I have used *thuts <br>
for "loudness".<br>
<br>
Is it separated from žut-haurn? Afaik there are other interpretations <br>
of this element beside "loud". How about *hlužs "loud" with a long <br>
[u:], after West Germanic?<br>
<br>
> 10. He played Magnhild free out of the arms of the troll - sloh <br>
(is) Magnhild<br>
> ut trolis arma -<br>
> A risky one. First, I replicate a syntactic structure found both <br>
in modern<br>
> English and Norwegian that I'm not sure I have the "right" to use in <br>
Gothic. The<br>
> original verse goes "Han leika Magnhild av nykkens arm" that can be <br>
roughly<br>
> translated as "He played Magnhild out of the monster's arm". My <br>
second 'big one'<br>
> is the neologism trols, which I consider particular risky :) I wait <br>
for your<br>
> comments.<br>
<br>
Photius' "Bibliotheca" contains an abstract of a longer work made by <br>
Olympiodorus of Thebes, pertaining to years 407-425. In 60b 31-34 we <br>
read: hOTI hOI OUANDALOI TOUS GOTQOUS TROULOUS KALOUSI DIA TO LIMWi <br>
PIEZOMENOUS AUTOUS TROULAN SITOU PARA TWN OUANDALWN AGORAZEIN hENOS <br>
CRUSINOU, hH DE TROULA OUDE TRITON XESTOU CWREI "The Vandals call the <br>
Goths TROULOI ("Truls"), because when [once] starving they (the Goths) <br>
bought from the Vandals a TROULA (basinful) of corn for the price of <br>
one golden coin, but the TROULA isn't equal to [even] a third of a <br>
XESTHS". XESTHS, Lat. sextarius is a measure = ca 0,5 lt. We know <br>
there was no great love between the Goths and the Vandals, and the <br>
latter were usually the suffering part in their mutual conflicts. They <br>
could easily have been telling some mocking jests and calling scornful <br>
names at their more successful cousins, but very unlikely they'd have <br>
used Greek words, speaking themselves the same tongue as the Goths. <br>
So, assertions were made (lacking the books to cite references, sorry) <br>
that the Vandals called the Goths the same name as is ON troll<br>
"monster", "stupid giant". It could be Go./Vand. *trull N.-a, pl. <br>
trulla. The rest of the story was apparently composed by some Greek <br>
author, maybe Olympiodorus himself, to give the name some sense for <br>
the reading late-Roman public. Like Gipedes in Isidor of Seville, you <br>
know.<br>
<br>
> I understand it is difficult to know if the Goths had an equivalent <br>
to<br>
> the Nordic "troll", and if so, which was the word they might use (I <br>
know this<br>
> topic may have been covered in any of the books that some of the <br>
members of this<br>
> list has published, if it's so please tell! Another reason to order <br>
them<br>
> -blush-)<br>
> <br>
> 11. Then the troll rose up from the depth of the lake -Than thar <br>
usstod trol<br>
> af diupei sįiwis -<br>
> Let me remark how close this one sounds to the original "Men daa <br>
steig trolli<br>
> upp or djupaste sjoe".<br>
<br>
Žan is not used initially. Af governs dative. Maybe, žanuh usstaig <br>
(urrais, usstož) žata trull (sa *trulla M.-an?) [iup] us diupistamma <br>
saiwa (us diupein saiwis)?<br>
<br>
> 12. It rumbled in the mountains and crashed in the clouds - swogs <br>
in bįirgam<br>
> jah theihvo in milham -<br>
> The original says "Det gjalla i berg of det runga i sky". That <br>
is, the<br>
> impersonal is used. My translation would go simply "noise in the <br>
mountains and<br>
> thunder in the clouds". It is ok this way for me, but I'd like to <br>
know any<br>
> suggestion of how to do the impersonal, be it in a "there is" <br>
construction. I<br>
> have looked for it but hadn't had the time to search deeper.<br>
<br>
I guess a single finite verb 3rd pers. sg. would be enough. For <br>
instance, auhjož in bairgahein (bairga[m], fairgunja[m]<wbr>) jah kriustiž <br>
in milhmam [milhmin] (or: in himina). The verbs are something to think <br>
about.<br>
<br>
> 13. He hit the harp with all of his concentrated strenght - than <br>
sloh (is)<br>
> harpo grimmithba ana allįi motha.<br>
> The original says "Daa slo han si harpa til bonns i sin harm". My <br>
translation<br>
> for that would be "Then played he his harp until 'bonns' in his <br>
anger". So I<br>
> have used the grimmitha, sf. as "fury" in the construction ana <br>
allįi "in<br>
> all...", cf. ana allįi nįuthįi, "in all our affliction", suggested <br>
by Llama's<br>
> dictionary.<br>
> <br>
> 14. And took away the troll's strenght and power - jah usnam <br>
swinthein ut<br>
> trolis arm.<br>
> <br>
> Also a parallel of the original "og utvinner krafti av trollenes <br>
arm".<br>
<br>
ut is an adverb, not a preposition, in Gothic, afaik. Use better us + <br>
dat.<br>
<br>
Summing up some suggestions made above<br>
<br>
> 1. Villemann went to the river -<br>
> Wiljamanna (Wilži- hic et passim) galaiž du ahvai -<br>
> 2. to the most beautiful of all linden -<br>
> [qam at] skaunistamma allaize lindabagme -<br>
> 3. There he wanted to play the gold harp -<br>
> žarei wilda gulžaharpon slahan (?)-<br>
> 4. Because the runes didn't augur well -<br>
> unte (runa)stabeis awi ni gebun -<br>
> 5. Villemann went to stand up against the torrent -<br>
> gaiddja [nu] Wiljamanna [du] standan wižra rinnon (I'm not sure I <br>
understand)-<br>
> 6. He could play the gold harp brilliantly -<br>
> handugo lista slahan (?) žo gulžaharpon <br>
> 7. He played it gently, he played it clever -<br>
> žo (sc. žo harpon) sloh miž mildižai, žo sloh miž snutrein -<br>
> 8. The bird calmed down on the green tree -<br>
> fugls anaqal (???) ana gronjamma bagma<br>
> 9. He played it gently, he played it loud -<br>
> žo sloh miž mildižai, žo sloh miž hludein (?) -<br>
> 10. He played Magnhild free out of the arms of the troll -<br>
> sloh Maginahildja [ut] us trullis armam -<br>
> 11. Then the troll rose up from the depth of the lake -<br>
> Žanuh usstaig žata trull us diupein saiwis -<br>
> 12. It rumbled in the mountains and crashed in the clouds -<br>
> [fairweitei žize iupa qižanane] -<br>
> 13. He hit the harp with all of his concentrated strenght -<br>
> žanuh-žan sloh žo harpon ...(?)<br>
> 14. And took away the troll's strenght and power.<br>
> jah ... maht [ut] us trullis arma.<br>
<br>
> > PS . There's a list of alternate versions and variations of this<br>
> song in<br>
> <br>
<a href="http://www.dokpro.uio.no/ballader/lister/tsbalfa_titler/tittel_314a.htm">http://www.dokpro.<wbr>uio.no/ballader/<wbr>lister/tsbalfa_<wbr>titler/tittel_<wbr>314a.htm</a><br>
l<br>
> > (Documentation Project by the Universities of Norway)<br>
<br>
96 variations, wow! Which was your vorlage?<br>
<br>
Ualarauans<br>
<br>
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border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a {
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc {
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o {font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq {margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->