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<p>Hi Ingemar!<br>
<br>
Ingemar, with all respect, but you intermingle the trinitarian dogma with the <br>
christological. The way in which the two natures of Christ combine, the human <br>
and the divine, is the christological. This was solved when arianism had been <br>
vanished already in the empire.<br>
<br>
The council of Nikaia was not a "dubious meeting" but is the first ecumenical <br>
council fundamental to the faith of all christian churches.<br>
<br>
It's a pity for me that I have a compendium of Arius' views in German only, <br>
written by Prof. Ziegenaus. But this example from wikipedia can possibly show <br>
it as well:<br>
<br>
"Arius formulated the following doctrines about Jesus:<br>
that the Logos and the Father were not of the same essence (ousia);<br>
That the Son was a created being (ktisma or poiema); and<br>
that though He was the creator of the worlds, and must therefore have existed <br>
before them and before all time, there was a "time" [although Arius refused <br>
to use words meaning time, such as chronos or aion] when He did not exist."<br>
<br>
"There was [a time] when God was alone, and was not yet Father, and afterward <br>
he became Father. The Son was not always. For, all things coming into being <br>
from not being, and all things created and made having begun to be, this <br>
logos or God also came into being from things not existing; and there was [a <br>
time] when he was not, and he was not before he was begotten, but he also had <br>
a beginning of being created."<br>
<br>
These are ideas which leaves doubt about the relevance of the question <br>
discussed. The west and the goths possibly did not participate in the <br>
struggle because it was much too theoretical for them. But without doubt <br>
these are not the words of a man regarding the Christ as purely human and <br>
adopted by god only because of his virtues. There is also no semblance to the <br>
muslim view of Christ as prophet only.<br>
<br>
You wrote: "He was born human and raised to divinity through a righteous life, <br>
like a boddisathva or deva being given a divine status." Where did you find <br>
that?<br>
<br>
"The Father was in command of the Son and the Son was created." This is not <br>
the content of the nikaian creed which is anyway only delivered to us via the <br>
council of Constantinople 381. <br>
The nicene creed specifically included the word homoousios (consubstantial)<wbr>.<br>
<br>
That arianism had the upper hand afterwards had a lot to do with the emperor's <br>
political necessities. As Arius stated that the father could create more sons <br>
than one Christ could be seen as an imperial god contrary to an universal. In <br>
fact the persians then could also have their own son. But it had nothing to <br>
do with the church as a whole.<br>
<br>
You miss the point of the christological debate also. In this the nestorians <br>
(antiochene) emphasized the separation of His two natures while the <br>
alexandrine emphasized their mix. The alexandrine didn't regard Christ as <br>
solely divine.<br>
<br>
"the Goths also send missionaries converting all the other Germanic <br>
continental tribes of major importance to Arianism except the Franks". Which <br>
tribes except the east germanic vandalians and burgundians? The suebians were <br>
pagan when they entered the empire as were the alemanni and the saxons.<br>
<br>
The egyptians welcomed the islamic invaders because as monophysites they were <br>
suppressed by the roman authorities. Their conversion to islam was a event <br>
which lasted for centuries and had, as in all islamic countries, more to do <br>
with pressure than with faith.<br>
<br>
When it goes to the question of the conversion to islam of the visigoths in <br>
Spain the question must be asked if this was really the case. Didn't go a lot <br>
of the goths to catalunia which was called "gothica" by the franks in the <br>
time of Charlemagne where they set up successfull resistance to the muslims? <br>
And for the visigoths staying in muslim Andalusia: Could it been more <br>
important for them that as a warrior aristocracy they could remain warriors <br>
only if converting to islam? Did the ordinary gothic nobleman really care so <br>
much for the trinitarian and christological dogmas?<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Wolfgang<br>
<br>
Am Sonntag, 1. April 2007 02:33 schrieb Ingemar Nordgren:<br>
> Hi Ualarauans!<br>
><br>
> It seems as a lot of people mistake the late Arianism in the time of<br>
> Wulfila with the original Arianism. Wulfila is after the Nicean<br>
> compromise and Wulfila just rejects the Teodosian interdict but is<br>
> influencved by the agreement in Constantinople 381-82. I have earlier<br>
> written an article in this matter from which I give you a slightly<br>
> revised excerpt:<br>
><br>
> '215 AD in Rome Sabellius declared as his opinion that the Father, the<br>
> Son and the Holy Ghost were only different manifestations of God. He<br>
> was part of the modalistic school. Immideately he was classified as<br>
> heretic. Hundred years later the presbyterian Arius in Alexandria<br>
> launched what later was called Arianism. The modern definition of this<br>
> faith says shortly that the Son, the pre-existent Christ, is not of<br>
> the same divine character as the Father but the first created entity.<br>
> This is however a rude simplification of the complete story. Arius<br>
> himself claimed the Son had both a human and a divine nature. He was<br>
> born human and raised to divinity through a righteous life, like a<br>
> boddisathva or deva being given a divine status. This implies that<br>
> even other humans could have the chance being devinated in this way.<br>
> Regarding the above mentioned Sabellianism you could even interpret<br>
> Arius saying Jesus was a human but the reincarnated Christ was an<br>
> incarnation of God, but in the visual shape of Jesus. In this way both<br>
> Sabellius and Arius succeed to give a picture of a monoteistic God in<br>
> opposition to the later in Nicea created trinity God, which was<br>
> understood as three different Gods by the Arians. A great majority of<br>
> the Eastern bishops sympatized with Arius and the leading were the two<br>
> Eusebius’<wbr>s in Caesarea and Nicomedia-the Eastern residential city of<br>
> the emperor. They had however a formidable opposer in Alexander,<br>
> pontiff of Alexandria and later this position was taken by his deacon<br>
> Athanasius, one of the most ruthless clergymen ever known in history<br>
> and fully comparable with e.g. Al Capone using the same criminal<br>
> methods to control the Alexandrian economy and the church. He was<br>
> several times abolished by the joint bishops, both Nicaenan and Arian,<br>
> because of his methods. Nota bene that all bishops used rough methods<br>
> but this was too much to take even for them. Athanasius and his,<br>
> mostly Western, followers claimed that the Father and the Son were of<br>
> the same nature, and hence they were regarded as polyteistic from<br>
> Arian wiew. The traditional Eastern wiew includes a god who is an<br>
> abstract entity and a single God. This goes as well for the Mosaic<br>
> religion.<br>
> In 325 the dubious meeting in Nicea was held. Emperor Constantine had<br>
> engaged the old bishop Hosius of Spain who sided with Athanasius and<br>
> the Westerners but because of the strong opposition there was a<br>
> compromise. The Arian bishops agreed that Father and Son were of the<br>
> same nature but interpreted it as being of a similar nature, not same.<br>
> The Father was in command of the Son and the Son was created. This<br>
> compromise resulted in almost total victory for the Arians for a<br>
> considerable time. In spite of the compromise they fundamentally<br>
> claimed there was but one real God. Arianism dominates until the death<br>
> of emperor Valens and the Visigoths accept the Arian faith in his<br>
> time, and the Goths also send missionaries converting all the other<br>
> Germanic continental tribes of major importance to Arianism except the<br>
> Franks......<br>
> Theodosius then calls a meeting in Constantinople in 381 forcing the<br>
> assembly to accept a dictate saying that the Father, the Son and the<br>
> Holy Ghost are of the same essence and that the Son existed together<br>
> with the Father before all ages. To get the Arian bishops to sign that<br>
> decision an amandment was issued, saying that the Father worked<br>
> through the Son and the Spirit and so stressing the unicum of the<br>
> Father. As soon as the Western delegates had returned home they<br>
> rejected this amandment. Soon after this Teodosius issued an edict<br>
> banning Arianism by law, and so it ceased in the empire but flourished<br>
> in the Germanic states. The united church was still in reality divided<br>
> and now the divison focused on the amandment which finally resulted in<br>
> the split 1054 because of the Filiocque-question.<br>
> Within the Eastern half of the pro-forma united church the old Arian<br>
> fight continued but now disguised as the Theotokos-debate. There were<br>
> two centrals, Antioc arguing the Arian wiew and Alexandria the<br>
> Nicaenan. The question was wether God could be born by a human woman.<br>
> The Antiocenes meant Jesus was both human and divine and hence could<br>
> be borne by a woman, but this was rejected by the Alexandrians<br>
> claiming Jesus Christ was wholly divine. In the long run this gives<br>
> Mary a similar position of type Boddisathva as Arius had given Jesus<br>
> and she is, as the first ever, made a saint. Her saintly background is<br>
> of course also closely connected with Isis and Harpokrates in the Late<br>
> Antique cult of Serapion and further back to the different<br>
> Mother-goddesses. Here we touch also a connection to the Tree of Life.<br>
> The council of Efesos in 431 aknowledged the position of Mary as<br>
> Theotokos. Jean Damascè<wbr>ne writes in the 7th c. that Mary was the<br>
> tabernacle in which logos was incarnated into Jesus, finally making<br>
> him Christ. Also in James’<wbr>s protevangelium 4:1 and in Photius is<br>
> stressed, that Marys mother, Anna, had a vision that her daughter<br>
> should be the instrument delivering human blood to Christ, to be let<br>
> out for the salvation of the world. There is accordingly no doubt that<br>
> Jesus is described as born with human blood. After death Theotokos<br>
> raised to heaven, now residing with the Father and the Son. This is<br>
> illustrated in the grave-chapel of Chora church, where Mary wears the<br>
> imperial purple mantle.<br>
> Here we are, accordingly, the old Orientalic trinity with father,<br>
> mother and son. Adding also the Gnostics we have a unification of<br>
> male and female-spirit and matter - both leading to the single<br>
> allmighty God, the result of both the forces like O and H becames OH2.<br>
> The female power is connected to the Earth and the growing things and<br>
> the male is the spiritual force. Hence, also in Christian context Mary<br>
> is connected with plants and fertility. Very early the Tree of Life is<br>
> connected with her and so is the heart-palmette. The Tree of Life, in<br>
> combination with the hearts,on the Byzantine,Armenian and Vestgautic<br>
> Tree of Life Slabs indicates indeed Mary and her son, the Tree,<br>
> growing out of the soil but on a divine foundation of a zikkurate, and<br>
> thereby stressing that Jesus is born human, by a human mother, and is<br>
> indeed the Son, not the Father.'<br>
><br>
> According to the above it is quite possible also that Islam could be<br>
> influenced by early Arianism. The reason Egypt later turned into<br>
> Islam is just the monoteistic question and Arius worked in Alexandria<br>
> and had a tremendous support of the local population. That is one of<br>
> the reasons the opposition as well centered in Alexandria and used any<br>
> force to fight Arius and his followers.<br>
><br>
> Best regards<br>
> Ingemar<br>
><br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>...> wrote:<br>
> > Hailai,<br>
> ><br>
> > How would you explain the fragment Skeir. 7:7<br>
> ><br>
> > akei nauh us þamma filu mais siponjans fullafahida jah anþarans<br>
> > gamaudida gaumjan, þatei is was sa sama, saei in auþidai m jere<br>
> > attans ize fodida...<br>
> ><br>
> > "but much more from this (five loaves and two fishes) he (Jesus) had<br>
> > satisfied the disciples and reminded the others to see that he was<br>
> > THE SAME WHO FED THEIR FATHERS IN THE DESERT FOUR HUNDRED YEARS".<br>
> ><br>
> > As you see Jesus is literally identified with God Father. Is this<br>
> > view really Arian? If not, how did it get here?<br>
> ><br>
> > Ualarauans<br>
><br>
> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email<br>
> to <<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe%40egroups.com">gothic-l-unsubscrib<wbr>e@egroups.<wbr>com</a>>. Yahoo! Groups Links<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
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background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc {
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o {font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq {margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->