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<p>Hi Ingemar.<br>
<br>
I think you make the mistake in separating the preexistent Christ from Jesus. <br>
Of course nobody believes that the human Jesus created everything. Jehoschua <br>
ben Joseph, as was his real name, was the incarnation of the preexistent <br>
Logos. After the incarnation he had both natures, unmixed and unseperated. In <br>
the catholic church we talk about christmas as of the festivity of the <br>
incarnation. The christological question is in fact: "Who died at the cross? <br>
A man, a god, or what?" Chalkedon said: "Both."<br>
<br>
Good literature in German, although very complicated:<br>
<br>
Scheffczyk, Ziegenaus: Katholische Dogmatik, Bd.2, Der Gott der Offenbarung<br>
<br>
Scheffczyk, Ziegenaus: Katholische Dogmatik, Bd.4, Jesus Christus. Die Fülle <br>
des Heils.<br>
<br>
These books look at the trinity and the christology, so the arian question is <br>
only part of them. But they look at the question from a very neutral point of <br>
view.<br>
<br>
Please don't misunderstand me: I don't want to blame Arius, in fact I want to <br>
defend him. He had a point, especially his christology is much smoother and <br>
easier than the one of Chalcedon (although this doesn't mean I think it's <br>
true).<br>
<br>
Viele Grüße,<br>
<br>
Wolfgang<br>
<br>
Am Montag, 2. April 2007 01:32 schrieb Ingemar Nordgren:<br>
> Hi Wolfgang!<br>
><br>
> Arius teacher belonged to the school of Origenes. Arius went further<br>
> still. When he had newly started his lectures he is reported by<br>
> Alexander to have said that Jesus divinity was questionable. 'The son<br>
> was not eternal like the father'. He had stated that 'the father knows<br>
> his son but the son does not know the father'.(Athanasius<wbr>, Thalia) He<br>
> claimed that: ‘Before Christ, God was not yet a father.’<br>
> ‘There was when he was not’.(<wbr>Hanson, Search for the Christian<br>
> Doctrine of God 5-8) Rather than asserting that Jesus was divine by nature,<br>
> Arius<br>
> emphasized that he had earned his adoption as son and his promotion<br>
> to divine status through moral growth and obedience to God.(Gregg R.E.<br>
> and Groh, D.E., Early arianism- A wiew of salvation, Philadelphia<br>
> 1981). Arius still verbally accepted the pre-existence of Christ, but<br>
> nota bene not of Jesus, and beleived that God had conceived him<br>
> (Christ)before time began. He also wrote: At Gods will the son is what<br>
> and whatsoever he(God) is.This, to me, points rather towards different<br>
> incarnations of God of which Christ, not Jesus, is one.Accordingly<br>
> Arius advanced the view that Jesus was a creature intermediary between<br>
> man and God. All Christians beleived that Jesus sacrifice redeemed<br>
> humanity. Alexander asked himself what would happen if people<br>
> understood what Arius was preaching and ask themselves what God did<br>
> for the son by resurrecting him and granting him immortality.<wbr>Reaction:<br>
> But if Jesus was not God by nature – if he earned his deification by<br>
> growing in wisdom and virtue – why, so can we all.(Rubinstein 1999)<br>
><br>
> This is indeed in my opinion a quite correct conclusion of Arius<br>
> teaching. He tried to keep both the ideas of Origenes and deny them.<br>
> He agrees that Christ is a lesser God and the first created entity but<br>
> this does not include Jesus, who is adopted from human flesh. Again<br>
> this is rather the initial idea of Sabellius with three incarnations<br>
> or aspects of the single God.<br>
><br>
> You make a formal difference between Christology and Trinitarism and<br>
> of course you are technically correct. Still those questions are not<br>
> able to exist independent of each other. You claim there was no<br>
> Arianism in the empire when the logos question and Theotokos was<br>
> discussed. Of course not since it was legally forbidden. This however<br>
> did not change the belief of the former Arians. They stuck to what was<br>
> left of possibilities to declare Jesus human by birth. The<br>
> Alexandrians okej agreed he was human and divine from birth but in<br>
> Antiocia he was just human and later became divine in Christ – the<br>
> resurrected entity (and not the dead one human in Arian sense, but<br>
> this they could of course not express officially).<br>
><br>
> You also claim that Nicea is the foundation of all Christians and very<br>
> important. Unhappily it is for most Christian churches but this does<br>
> not make it better in any way. Still there are Christian beliefs that<br>
> are not Nicean and Arianism is not dead except of to the name and may<br>
> all Non-Nicean creeds flower. Is there indeed any sensible person who<br>
> beleives the human Jesus created the world and the universe??!!<br>
> Possibly some clergymen but probably not many.<br>
><br>
> Wulfila of course is later and was, as I wrote, influenced by the<br>
> Nicean compromise.He appears on a consilium in Constantinople in 360<br>
> when the Arian bishops confirm the earlier decision of the<br>
> Rimini-consilium, namely to change the basic concept that ’the father<br>
> is not of the same nature as the son’, which shall be changed to say<br>
> that ’the son is similar with the father’ – this means<br>
> that the son is homoios (similar to) the father – not of the same<br>
> essence, which was claimed in Nicea. The word essence (ousia) should not be<br>
> used since it caused trouble for the people to understand. In a similar way<br>
> the word substance (hypostasis) was forbidden.This means a partly<br>
> acceptance of the demands of the Niceanean bishops, but still a clear Arian<br>
> borderline is marked.<br>
> Before he dies Wulfila issues a creed in 381 clearly distancing<br>
> himself from Nicea. It is found in a letter from his disciple bishop<br>
> Auxentius:<br>
> He beleives in the not created and invisible God, in his only created<br>
> Son, who created all, and in the Holy Spirit, who is neither god or<br>
> lord, but the fidel servant of Christ, not equal with him, but<br>
> subordinated and obedient to the Son in all things,like also the Son<br>
> is subordinated and obedient to his Father in all things.<br>
><br>
> This accordingly refutes the agreement in Constantinople 381-2<br>
> dictated by Theodosius. Note as well he writes Christ and not Jesus.<br>
><br>
><br>
> If you have good literature in German I would be happy to learn of<br>
> that, since it is problems to find good literature in English in these<br>
> questions.<br>
><br>
> Die besten Grüße!<br>
> Ingemar<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email<br>
> to <<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe%40egroups.com">gothic-l-unsubscrib<wbr>e@egroups.<wbr>com</a>>. Yahoo! Groups Links<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
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