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<p><br>
Hallo Wolfgang!<br>
<br>
Vielen Dank für die Hinweise von Literatur!<br>
<br>
I can well understand that the Roman Catholic church defines Jesus as<br>
an incarnation - they have to to be beleivable in their position.<br>
To me however it seems much more convincing to see the incarnation in<br>
connection with the resurrected entity-Christ - and so I think Arius<br>
as well did. Maybe I am biased since I do not beleive in a virgin<br>
giving birth with a normal pregnancy after copulating with a god! It<br>
should have been som kind of miracolous instaneous appearance in that<br>
incarnation.<wbr>This however happens when the resurrected entity appears<br>
and is hence more convincing.What more is - the delivery in a stable<br>
in Betlehem seems directly taken from the birth of Mitras child in a<br>
cave, inclusive the visit of the mages following the then 8-pointed<br>
star. It all smells syncretism. Accordingly I think both Arius and I<br>
would answer - a man died but a divine reincarnation took place<br>
afterwards. That's why I separate the two entities. Maybe I am wrong<br>
but all quotations from Arius I have seen till now seem to confirm<br>
that possibility but you can, if you want, also read them contrary. It<br>
all depends on whom is referred to with the little word 'He'! Maybe<br>
this is fully intentional from Arius side to keep his back free!? I am<br>
evidently not alone in that reading. Also remember that the Egyptian<br>
conversion of the majority was not due to military conquest but<br>
voluntary- they preferred one single god before three - and they were<br>
since long influenced by Arius and his followers.<br>
<br>
Die besten Grüße und danke für eine stimulierende Diskussion!<br>
<br>
Ingemar <br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, Wolfgang Franz <wolfgang.franz@<wbr>...><br>
wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hi Ingemar.<br>
> <br>
> I think you make the mistake in separating the preexistent Christ<br>
from Jesus. <br>
> Of course nobody believes that the human Jesus created everything.<br>
Jehoschua <br>
> ben Joseph, as was his real name, was the incarnation of the<br>
preexistent <br>
> Logos. After the incarnation he had both natures, unmixed and<br>
unseperated. In <br>
> the catholic church we talk about christmas as of the festivity of the <br>
> incarnation. The christological question is in fact: "Who died at<br>
the cross? <br>
> A man, a god, or what?" Chalkedon said: "Both."<br>
> <br>
> Good literature in German, although very complicated:<br>
> <br>
> Scheffczyk, Ziegenaus: Katholische Dogmatik, Bd.2, Der Gott der<br>
Offenbarung<br>
> <br>
> Scheffczyk, Ziegenaus: Katholische Dogmatik, Bd.4, Jesus Christus.<br>
Die Fülle <br>
> des Heils.<br>
> <br>
> These books look at the trinity and the christology, so the arian<br>
question is <br>
> only part of them. But they look at the question from a very neutral<br>
point of <br>
> view.<br>
> <br>
> Please don't misunderstand me: I don't want to blame Arius, in fact<br>
I want to <br>
> defend him. He had a point, especially his christology is much<br>
smoother and <br>
> easier than the one of Chalcedon (although this doesn't mean I think<br>
it's <br>
> true).<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Viele Grüße,<br>
> <br>
> Wolfgang<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Am Montag, 2. April 2007 01:32 schrieb Ingemar Nordgren:<br>
> > Hi Wolfgang!<br>
> ><br>
> > Arius teacher belonged to the school of Origenes. Arius went further<br>
> > still. When he had newly started his lectures he is reported by<br>
> > Alexander to have said that Jesus divinity was questionable. 'The son<br>
> > was not eternal like the father'. He had stated that 'the father knows<br>
> > his son but the son does not know the father'.(Athanasius<wbr>, Thalia) He<br>
> > claimed that: ‘Before Christ, God was not yet a father.’<br>
> > ‘There was when he was not’.(<wbr>Hanson, Search for the<br>
Christian<br>
> > Doctrine of God 5-8) Rather than asserting that Jesus was divine<br>
by nature,<br>
> > Arius<br>
> > emphasized that he had earned his adoption as son and his promotion<br>
> > to divine status through moral growth and obedience to God.(Gregg R.E.<br>
> > and Groh, D.E., Early arianism- A wiew of salvation, Philadelphia<br>
> > 1981). Arius still verbally accepted the pre-existence of Christ, but<br>
> > nota bene not of Jesus, and beleived that God had conceived him<br>
> > (Christ)before time began. He also wrote: At Gods will the son is what<br>
> > and whatsoever he(God) is.This, to me, points rather towards different<br>
> > incarnations of God of which Christ, not Jesus, is one.Accordingly<br>
> > Arius advanced the view that Jesus was a creature intermediary between<br>
> > man and God. All Christians beleived that Jesus sacrifice redeemed<br>
> > humanity. Alexander asked himself what would happen if people<br>
> > understood what Arius was preaching and ask themselves what God did<br>
> > for the son by resurrecting him and granting him immortality.<wbr>Reaction:<br>
> > But if Jesus was not God by nature – if he earned his<br>
deification by<br>
> > growing in wisdom and virtue – why, so can we<br>
all.(Rubinstein 1999)<br>
> ><br>
> > This is indeed in my opinion a quite correct conclusion of Arius<br>
> > teaching. He tried to keep both the ideas of Origenes and deny them.<br>
> > He agrees that Christ is a lesser God and the first created entity but<br>
> > this does not include Jesus, who is adopted from human flesh. Again<br>
> > this is rather the initial idea of Sabellius with three incarnations<br>
> > or aspects of the single God.<br>
> ><br>
> > You make a formal difference between Christology and Trinitarism and<br>
> > of course you are technically correct. Still those questions are not<br>
> > able to exist independent of each other. You claim there was no<br>
> > Arianism in the empire when the logos question and Theotokos was<br>
> > discussed. Of course not since it was legally forbidden. This however<br>
> > did not change the belief of the former Arians. They stuck to what was<br>
> > left of possibilities to declare Jesus human by birth. The<br>
> > Alexandrians okej agreed he was human and divine from birth but in<br>
> > Antiocia he was just human and later became divine in Christ<br>
– the<br>
> > resurrected entity (and not the dead one human in Arian sense, but<br>
> > this they could of course not express officially).<br>
> ><br>
> > You also claim that Nicea is the foundation of all Christians and very<br>
> > important. Unhappily it is for most Christian churches but this does<br>
> > not make it better in any way. Still there are Christian beliefs that<br>
> > are not Nicean and Arianism is not dead except of to the name and may<br>
> > all Non-Nicean creeds flower. Is there indeed any sensible person who<br>
> > beleives the human Jesus created the world and the universe??!!<br>
> > Possibly some clergymen but probably not many.<br>
> ><br>
> > Wulfila of course is later and was, as I wrote, influenced by the<br>
> > Nicean compromise.He appears on a consilium in Constantinople in 360<br>
> > when the Arian bishops confirm the earlier decision of the<br>
> > Rimini-consilium, namely to change the basic concept that<br>
’the father<br>
> > is not of the same nature as the son’, which shall be<br>
changed to say<br>
> > that ’the son is similar with the father’ – this<br>
means<br>
> > that the son is homoios (similar to) the father – not of the<br>
same<br>
> > essence, which was claimed in Nicea. The word essence (ousia)<br>
should not be<br>
> > used since it caused trouble for the people to understand. In a<br>
similar way<br>
> > the word substance (hypostasis) was forbidden.This means a partly<br>
> > acceptance of the demands of the Niceanean bishops, but still a<br>
clear Arian<br>
> > borderline is marked.<br>
> > Before he dies Wulfila issues a creed in 381 clearly distancing<br>
> > himself from Nicea. It is found in a letter from his disciple bishop<br>
> > Auxentius:<br>
> > He beleives in the not created and invisible God, in his only created<br>
> > Son, who created all, and in the Holy Spirit, who is neither god or<br>
> > lord, but the fidel servant of Christ, not equal with him, but<br>
> > subordinated and obedient to the Son in all things,like also the Son<br>
> > is subordinated and obedient to his Father in all things.<br>
> ><br>
> > This accordingly refutes the agreement in Constantinople 381-2<br>
> > dictated by Theodosius. Note as well he writes Christ and not Jesus.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > If you have good literature in German I would be happy to learn of<br>
> > that, since it is problems to find good literature in English in these<br>
> > questions.<br>
> ><br>
> > Die besten Grüße!<br>
> > Ingemar<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a<br>
blank email<br>
> > to <<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe%40egroups.com">gothic-l-unsubscrib<wbr>e@egroups.<wbr>com</a>>. Yahoo! Groups Links<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
><br>
<br>
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