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<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Lang mel galişan (passim) "Long time ago" – why not uslişan? And <br>
> maybe dative would be better here, cf. Icel. liğnum şrim <br>
> vetrum "three years ago".<br>
<br>
For time having passed, we've got 'nahts framis galaiş'. That's why I<br>
chose this one. Maybe 'usleişan' would work too? I shall ponder<br>
cases. You could be right about dative; it is referring more to a<br>
point in the past than a period. But, if I remember rightly, '(at)<br>
liğnum şrim vetrum' means "after three years had passed", "when three<br>
years were up" -- rather like the Gothic dative absolute: jah at Iesu<br>
ufdaupidamma jah bidjandin usluknoda himins (L 3:21); at sunnin şan<br>
urrinnandin ufbrann (Mk 4:6). Old Norse has the expression: (şat var)<br>
fyrir löngu "(that was) long ago"...<br>
<br>
> <br>
> alafusai gumans "men most eager" – alafunsai?<br>
<br>
Yes, you're absolutely right. All that OE and ON poetry made me forget!<br>
<br>
> ufsnişanai stainam "slain with stones" – ufsneişan seems to mean <br>
> literally "to slaughter an animal", "to kill with a knife or sword". <br>
> How could you do it with stones?<br>
<br>
Good point. I'll think about that one. Possible excuses: an<br>
acceptable synonym in poetry? And ON 'drepa' doesn't only mean to<br>
kill by striking. Or alternatively:<br>
<br>
maurşridai stainam<br>
magjus juşan bai.<br>
<br>
Okay, not exactly murdered; I'm sure Ermanaric could argue<br>
self-defense, but again possible an acceptable poetic license?<br>
<br>
> ni witum ... ak gataujam "We know not ... but that is what we shall <br>
> do". It would seem as if there's an opposition "ni – ak" in the <br>
> sense of Germ. "nicht - sondern". That would be a strange phrase, <br>
> where knowing and doing are something that substitute for each <br>
> other. German would have aber or trotzdem and Gothic probably iş or <br>
> sweşauh. Correct me if I misunderstand here something.<br>
<br>
I see what you mean. I have a vague memory of seeing a similar<br>
example, or examples, somewhere in the Epistles. I'll try and track<br>
it down. It's always possible I hallucinated it... Thanks for<br>
pointing it out. If I can't find anything, I'll change it as you suggest.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Şata was auk şiudans / şiuşeigosts gibom; / şata was auk hilmje / <br>
> hindarweisosts "For that was the king most kind in gifts; for that <br>
> was the sliest of sovereigns". Why not şiudane, to parallel with <br>
> hilmje?<br>
<br>
Both usages are attested: gudjane auhumistans : auhumists weiha. I<br>
chose 'şiudans' just for the sake of the meter: ú (x) x x / x<br>
(Sievers' type A, which wouldn't work with two undressed syllables<br>
after the final lift/beat).<br>
<br>
> <br>
> şuls "minister" – is ON şulr an –i-stem or an-u-stem (in which case <br>
> it's Go. şulus)?<br>
<br>
OE şyle, an i-stem. I think the ON word is an i-stem too, isn't it? <br>
Dative 'şul': "At hárum şul hlæ şú aldregi."<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Inn qam "In came" – I remember we discussed that inna qam would be <br>
> more correct.<br>
<br>
Excellent point!<br>
<br>
> jah minşiladrupam "and the foam of the bit" – munşila-drupam?<br>
<br>
OHG mindil; OE mídl, míşl (rather than *mıdl, *mığl) -- points to *<br>
minşila-. Could still be related to 'munşs' by ablaut, perhaps? The<br>
OED mentions Lat. manducare.<br>
<br>
> Imrikins banins "Imrika's slayer" – do you think the nom. is bana<br>
> M -an? Why not banja M.-an (synon. with banja F.-o "wound")?<br>
<br>
Fairly sure about this one: OE 'bana' "killer"; ON bani; OHG bano. <br>
But OE 'benne' "wound"; ON "ben".<br>
<br>
> so şiudaahva "the mighty river" – wouldn't the a's have been <br>
> contracted into şiudahva? Are there any examples?<br>
<br>
Lots of examples of 'aa' [ <a href="http://www.wulfila.be/Corpus/Search.html">http://www.wulfila.<wbr>be/Corpus/<wbr>Search.html</a> ],<br>
most involve prefixes, but cf. galiugaapaustauleis<wbr>; afraanastodeinai.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> badwos fusa "keen for conflict" – funsa? And, isn't it < PG *bağwaz <br>
> M.-a? Maybe, badwis funsa or as a compound badwafunsa?<br>
<br>
Yes, 'funsa'. The object of desire in genitive in OE and ON. And see<br>
OE beado, fwo; ON böğ, gen. böğvar, fwo.<br>
<br>
> langa "long" (adv.) – maybe laggo?<br>
<br>
We've got: swa lagga swe ik im şiudo apaustaulus (R 11:13); swa lagga<br>
hveila swe (Mk 2:19, etc.); saei habaida unhulşons mela lagga (L<br>
8:27); jah ni wilda laggai hveilai (L 18:4).<br>
<br>
And: nauh leitil mel liuhaş in izwis ist (J 12:35); leitil nauh jah ni<br>
saihviş mik; jah aftra leitil jah gasaihviş mik (J 16:16-17).<br>
<br>
So both dative and accusative used adverbially for duration of time. <br>
According to Wright, accusative is the usual case for duration in time<br>
or space. I wonder if the use of dative arose through<br>
reinterpretation of 'lagga (mela)' as 'lagga (hveila)'? Icelandic has<br>
'löngu' "for a long time" (dat.sg.).<br>
<br>
> <br>
> leitil waiht "a little thing" – why not leitila waihts F.-i?<br>
<br>
I see that Streitberg says 'waiht' neuter is used only with negatives,<br>
so you're right again: waihts, fi./fc. Attested both as an i-stem and<br>
a consonant stem. This will mess up the meter of the next line, but<br>
I'll think of something...<br>
<br>
> <br>
> haglakaurnam / kaldaim draibişs "by hailstones driven" – is this <br>
> inspired by Icelandic runic poem: hagall er kaldakorn / ok <br>
> krapadrífa?<br>
<br>
Yes, that and the Old English poem the Seafarer, which calls hail<br>
"corna caldast", and the Old English rune poem has "H byş hwitust corna".<br>
<br>
> <br>
> sa staşs, şarei wulfs / ni wili wraton ufta "that place where the <br>
> wolf is loath to linger" – maybe şadei ("where to") ... wraton?<br>
<br>
I guess 'şarei' suggests that the wolf might pass through if he had<br>
to, but he wouldn't actually want to stroll about there. 'şadei'<br>
would suggest that the wolf wouldn't go there at all. So either make<br>
sense, although 'şadei' might be more dire? 'ufta' by the way was my<br>
attempt at imitating the traditional understatement in old Germanic<br>
poems: the wolf doesn't often like to wander in that place = the wolf<br>
doesn't like to be there at all.<br>
<br>
> waurhtida ijos du wargam "made outlaws of them" – (ga-)waurhta? And <br>
> maybe you'd need a fem. of wargs. Dat. pl. wargom (both F.-o and<br>
> F.-on)?<br>
<br>
> Ni andnam şos brudeis at reik / bleişein in waihtai "Those ladies <br>
> got no mercy from the ruler" – Ni andnemun ... fram ... bleişeins ni <br>
> waiht(ai)?<br>
<br>
Yes, plural: 'andnemun'. But 'at' is okay: şo anabusn nam at attin<br>
meinamma (John 10:18); unte ik andnam at fraujin (1Cor 11:23). There<br>
is also a similar use of 'at' with 'nema' in Old Norse. I see bleişei<br>
is attested in both singular and plural. Any reason to favour the<br>
plural? 'in waihtai' is a very common intensifier for the negative [<br>
<a href="http://www.wulfila.be/Corpus/Search.html">http://www.wulfila.<wbr>be/Corpus/<wbr>Search.html</a> ].<br>
<br>
> Gardins begetun "homes they found" – isn't gards an –a-stem, acc. <br>
> pl. gardans?<br>
<br>
No, it's an i-stem: andnimaina mik in gardins seinans (L 16:4); şaiei<br>
gardins allans uswaltjand (Tit 1:11). And see Streitberg: [<br>
<a href="http://www.wulfila.be/lib/streitberg/1910/HTML/B047.html">http://www.wulfila.<wbr>be/lib/streitber<wbr>g/1910/HTML/<wbr>B047.html</a> ].<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Fraus nasos is smalos "Froze his little nose" – if nasos is pl., <br>
> then why not frusun? Or is it an impersonal verb friusan acc.?<br>
<br>
That's what I was thinking. It's used impersonally in Old Norse.<br>
<br>
> was abraba lasiws "He was sorely exhausted" – lit. "was strongly <br>
> weak"?<br>
<br>
"Extremely weak" ("exhausted" being an interpretive translation from<br>
the context...) The adverb is attested used of fear and size.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> bi spedistin (twice) "at last" – an Anglicism?<br>
<br>
I was thinking of: bi spedistin şan anakumbjandam şaim ainlibim<br>
ataugida (Mk 16:14).<br>
<br>
> <br>
> jah waton bigat "and found water" – wato acc. sg. neutr.?<br>
<br>
You're right.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Ga-u-hva-saihvis şu, wins "Doest thou see ought, friend" –<br>
> win voc. sg.?<br>
<br>
Yes, it should be. Well spotted! Metrical note: rightly or wrongly I<br>
decided to count 'hv' and 'q' as single consonants, rather than clusters.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> waihts unkunşos "strange beings" – waihtins acc. pl.?<br>
> <br>
> hva and wig skewjan, / waihts unkunşos "what it is that walking upon <br>
> the way, strange beings" – hva and wig skeweiş, waihtins... or <br>
> waihteis?<br>
<br>
The word is attested both as i-stem and consonant stem: see above. So<br>
either would work: waihts or waihtins.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> austro "from the east" – maybe austana?<br>
<br>
austro, from aust(r) + the ablative suffix -şro dodges the question of<br>
whether 'r' should be included in the root; and it seemed to me like a<br>
reasonable possibility given the various other adverbs built along<br>
this model: jainşro, etc. This is meant to be Sievers A 3 delayed<br>
alliteration, by the way (cf. Vóluspá: ok um şat gættusk = x x x / x).<br>
Only one unstressed syllable is allowed to follow the single lift in<br>
this type. So I'd have to rethink this a bit if I chose *aust(r?)ana<br>
instead. I'm sure the question of directions must have come up here<br>
in the past...<br>
<br>
> şruthaurne "trumpets" – şuthaurne?<br>
<br>
That's right. Thanks.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Niu gadaursam "Do we not dare" – gadaursum (praet.-praes.<wbr>)?<br>
<br>
True.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> şatei usdreiban magt "that thou canst drive out" – mageis (optative)?<br>
<br>
Yes, as in the suitable combattative: nih ahjaiş şatei qemjau lagjan<br>
gawairşi ana airşa; ni qam lagjan gawairşi, ak hairu (Mt 10:34).<br>
<br>
> <br>
> wulfeins "wolvish" – wouldn't wulfisks or wulfakunds be better?<br>
<br>
I picked this suffix in particular because of the Old English poem<br>
Deor: Wé geáscodan Eormanríces wylfenne geşóht "We have heard of<br>
Ermanaric's wolvish mind."<br>
<br>
> <br>
> aişşau afmarzeins / ana markai sijai "or treachery be upon the <br>
> border" – so you stress af-marzeins on the stem? Or aişşau, af- and <br>
> ana do alliterate here?<br>
<br>
I was alliterating on /m/.<br>
<br>
aişşau afmarzeins x x / \ x Sievers type C<br>
ana markai sijai x x / x ú (x) Sievers type B + resolution<br>
<br>
For the first of these, cf. gyf him edwendan (Beowulf 280 x x / \ x),<br>
admittedly with alliteration on the vowel /e/. I think it's most<br>
common, in Beowulf at least, to alliterate on the first lift where<br>
there is only one prop/stuğill/<wbr>alliterator, but there are also plenty<br>
of lines where alliteration is on the second lift only. But are there<br>
any where the alliteration is carried by the second part of a<br>
compound? I'll investigate.<wbr>.. If not, it might be worth changing.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> ana bel galagt "thou didst set ... on a pyre" – you mean some poetic <br>
> form of galagides?<br>
<br>
You're right, of course: it should be 'galagides'. No poetry here! <br>
I'll need to sort out the meter to accomadate that.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> sarwo laus "defenceless" – sarwe laus (sarwa N.-a pl.)?<br>
<br>
Yes.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> wainaha kuni "wretched people" – wainah or wainahata?<br>
<br>
Yes. I think this must have crept in the course of revisions. I<br>
probably had 'şiuda' at one time...<br>
<br>
> <br>
> fus haljos "eager for thy grave" – funs?<br>
<br>
Yes.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> ana hangista "on horseback" – maybe ha:hists for "hengest" (Old <br>
> Runic hanhistaR)?<br>
<br>
Funny you should mention that... I was just thinking about this,<br>
after looking up "horse" names. I think I will change it to 'hahista'<br>
(considering Go. hahan, fahan, as against their NWG cognates with /ng/).<br>
<br>
> <br>
> iş anşarai arans / ana airşai distaurun "others eagles upon the <br>
> earth did rend" – anşarans acc. pl.?<br>
<br>
Yes. Another one of those lines that went through so many revisions I<br>
got blind to the discrepancies!<br>
<br>
> <br>
> bişe saiwala brigus / us brustim fralet "when the monarch let go the <br>
> life from his breast" – fralailot?<br>
<br>
Yes: you're right again! I blame Old Norse 'lét'.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Ni was ainhun strawo / jainamma reik "No wake at all for that <br>
> noble" – ainohun (since strawa is fem.)?<br>
<br>
Yes. I had a feeling there was some tendency to disregard agreement<br>
with 'ainhun'. In the back of my mind, I had that example of Wright's<br>
'ni wairşiş garaihts ainhun leike' -- but obviously this isn't quite<br>
the same thing.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Ik gasahv şar falka laus "A falcon I saw there" – falkan lausana <br>
> (acc.)?<br>
<br>
Correct.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> Also I spotted a number of compounds with a missing bindvowel:<br>
> <br>
> şis armlausins "of the armless" – armalausins? (there was even such <br>
> a tribe in Germania – Lat. Armalausi)<br>
> <br>
> hunslfrodos "knowledgeable about sacrifice" – hunsla-frodos?<br>
> <br>
> tibrmaujos "oblation-maidens" – tibramaujos?<br>
> <br>
> neişhardus "hate-hard" – neişahardus? Though here it may be right, <br>
> since (if) h was weak.<br>
> <br>
> iuphimins "High Heaven" – iupahimins? Same is here.<br>
> <br>
> I'm sure that most of the above said (sg. for pl. etc) are <br>
> poeticisms and somehow connected with the rhyme. Would Llama sa <br>
> Liuşareis comment on that?<br>
<br>
Certainly! As you've guessed, for the sake of the meter, I took<br>
advantage of the fact that connecting vowels are sometimes used,<br>
sometimes not, in Biblical Gothic. Of course, it may be that Gothic<br>
poets followed quite different rules; in fact they probably did at a<br>
very early stage in the language; but at the stage we have it, it's<br>
not so very different from Old English at the time when the earliest<br>
examples of Old English poetry are thought to have been composed. <br>
Near enough for it to be fairly easy to wrangle sentences into<br>
passable lines of verse according to the same rules. So I tried as<br>
far as I could to follow the metrical patterns of early Old English<br>
poetry as analysed by Eduard Sievers and others in that tradition.<br>
<br>
Nahts neişhardus. / / \ x -- this is the archetypal Sievers' type D.<br>
<br>
gatawida tibrmaujos (x) ú (x) x / \ x -- type D*, this time with<br>
the prefix counting as anacrusis, resolution of the short first lift<br>
(i.e. the short stressed syllable is counted together with the<br>
following unstressed syllable as metrically equivalent to a single<br>
stressed syllable) + one intervening unstressed syllable (that's what<br>
the asterisk denotes in Sievers' classification)<wbr>, and the rest as in<br>
"nahts neişhardus".<br>
<br>
trudan hreimawigans, ú (x) / x ù (x). -- Reversed D, with resolution<br>
on the first lift and the half-stress at the end. Here we can get<br>
away with the connecting vowel because the half-stress is on a short<br>
syllable, so it can be resolved. This is a variant of type D in which<br>
the half-stress is shifted to the end of the line and is preceded by a<br>
unstressed syllable. "trudan hreimwigans" would also be metrically<br>
acceptable because resolution is blocked in this position when a short<br>
half-stress immediately follows a long stressed syllable (and<br>
half-stress must be followed by a long unstressed syllable, which it<br>
is: -ans).<br>
<br>
> şis armlausins "of the armless" – armalausins? (there was even such <br>
> a tribe in Germania – Lat. Armalausi)<br>
> <br>
> hunslfrodos "knowledgeable about sacrifice" – hunsla-frodos?<br>
<br>
The armless one is Ermanaric, a reference to his injuries received<br>
from Sunjahildi's vengeful brothers. "şis armlausins" would scan: x /<br>
\ x. This is a variant of Sievers' type C in which a haflf-stress<br>
(secondary stress) counts is used in the second lift just like a full<br>
stress. Weirdly, from the point of view of Germanic cognates, Go.<br>
'arms' "arm" is a masculine i-stem, so the expanded form would be:<br>
armilaus. Cf. jah is andnam ina ana armins seinans (L 2:28).<br>
<br>
> Ualarauans<br>
<br>
Şus awilido, Walhahrabn. You've been very helpful! Hmm, here's a<br>
puzzle: preterite 2nd. sg. of hilpan? halpt? halft?<br>
<br>
LN<br>
<br>
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