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<p><br>
Thanks for your massively detailed post! A lot to ponder here... <br>
Interesting that Danaper / Danaprum should buck the trend of feminine<br>
river names. Could be significant then... Alternatively, turning to<br>
a little devil's advocatry myself (and ignoring the possible neuter):<br>
could that be because -er was just too convenient in suggesting a<br>
masculine noun of the Latin second declension? Old English river<br>
names include a lot that seem to be weak feminine: Úse (Ouse), Lýge<br>
(Lye), Deorwente (Derwent), Wísle (Vistula), Humbre (Humber), Temes(e)<br>
(Thames). Humbre also indeclinable, Temes also strong feminine,<br>
sometimes also with Latinate endings. But Fifeldór (Eider), neuter<br>
due to its second element 'dór' "door". Ilfing (Elbing), ? Rín<br>
(Rhine), m. or f. -- OHG m., ON f. Dónua (Danube), f. indecl. --<br>
obviously taken from Latin.<br>
<br>
What do you think to the etymology suggested in the Wikipedia entry<br>
Dnieper [ <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper_River#Name_etymology">http://en.wikipedia<wbr>.org/wiki/<wbr>Dnieper_River#<wbr>Name_etymology</a> ],<br>
which derives the name from Sarmatian *Da:nu apara "the river to the<br>
rear"? What would the gender of Sarmatian *da:nu be, I wonder? Since<br>
the East Germanic peoples had close contacts with the Sarmatians, the<br>
Goths might just have been influenced by that. Or maybe not...<br>
<br>
Should we also consider the possibility of *Danapair or *Danapar<br>
(masculine or feminine i-stem?; masculine a-stem?), with deletion of<br>
nominative -s after /r/ following a short unstressed syllable?<br>
<br>
I'm not convinced that the kings names would have a bearing on the<br>
gender of the rivers, since even if the rivers had been feminine, the<br>
kings names would probably be masculine. But then, it's curious that<br>
these two names should occur together. I wonder if it's just chance<br>
that "riding" ships is mentioned as one of their skills. Perhaps<br>
there is some memory behind this verse of a line in some other poem<br>
where the two names were understood as rivers. In which case, I might<br>
very cautiously be leaning towards a masculine i-stem (rather than a<br>
u-stem, because of the lack of u-umlaut in Old Norse; lack of i-umlaut<br>
is typical in short masculine i-stems).<br>
<br>
Again, thanks for all these helpful details.<br>
<br>
LN<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>> <br>
> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > > Ana Danaprais staþam (et passim) "on the banks of the Dniepr" – <br>
> it's<br>
> > > after ON Danparstaðir, isn't it? *Danaprs as I can gather is <br>
> thought<br>
> > > to be an –i-stem fem. Jordanes used Danaper masc. and one time<br>
> > > Danaprum neutr. (Get. 30: magnumque illud Danaprum Taurumque<br>
> > > montem..., if illud is not a typo for illum acc. masc. here). The<br>
> > > formation is probably the same as in Danaster /-trum. In ON a re-<br>
> > > distribution (Neuverteilung) of morphemes took place and the <br>
> final<br>
> > > –r- of the stem became a flective ending, hence Danpr, gen. <br>
> Danpar.<br>
> > > Cf. also later Slavic forms: ORuss. DnEpru > Russ. Dnepr, Ukr.<br>
> > > Dnipro - all masc. All this leads me to think that Gothic had a<br>
> > > form like *Danaprus M.-u or *Danaprs M.-a/-i, in which case gen.<br>
> > > would be *Danapraus or *Danapris. BTW., are you sure that it was<br>
> > > staþa "banks", not stadeis "places" (as in ON). Ana Danapraus<br>
> > > stadim? Or better as a compound *Danaprustadeis/<wbr>-staþa?<br>
> > <br>
> > Atlakviða, stanza 5 'ok staði Danpar' points to Go. stadeis, but 'á<br>
> > Danparstöðum' of Hervarar saga could be either. In one version <br>
> this<br>
> > is the name of the district, with Árheimar being the citadel, in<br>
> > another version Árheimar is the district, 'á Danparstöðum' the <br>
> citadel<br>
> > -- so perhaps it was already unclear to compilers of the saga. G.<br>
> > Turville Petre notes in his edition of Hervarar saga, p. 83 "the <br>
> word<br>
> > probably means 'on the banks of the Dnjepr". I guessed at <br>
> *Danaprs,<br>
> > fi., since river names are typically feminine in Old Norse -- <br>
> assuming<br>
> > that this was an ancient Germanic trend; also because of the noun<br>
> > 'ahva'. Are there tendencies regarding the gender of river names <br>
> in<br>
> > Latin that Jordanes might have been following, or breaking with?<br>
> > Thomas Czarnecki reconstructed *Donawi for Danube (fi.?). I'll <br>
> look<br>
> > into this though. Are there any more rivers mentioned in the <br>
> Gothic<br>
> > Bible fragments besides Iaurdanus ahva? Any Gothic river names <br>
> that<br>
> > have survived in Eastern Europe?<br>
> <br>
> I've tried to make a little investigation of rivernames by Jordanes, <br>
> without claims to completeness (there must be professional studies <br>
> of this subject), and I found that in cases where there had been no <br>
> classical tradition he uses mostly feminine names. Examples: Get. 30 <br>
> Uagosolam F. acc. sg.; Get. 33 Tisia F., but ibid. Flutausis M.; <br>
> Get. 35 (also 96) Uiscla F. (clearly from a Gothic source, alongside <br>
> classical Uistula); Get. 114 Marisia F., Miliare N. (?) et Gilpil <br>
> (?) et Grisia (F.); Get. 178 Tisia Tibisiaque et Dricca (all F.). <br>
> The last ones exactly parallel Priscus' hO TE DRHKWN LEGOMENOS KAI <br>
> hO TIGAS (misspelled for TISAS?) KAI hO TIFHSAS in Fr. 8 – all <br>
> masculine). Some of them are usually identified by scholars with the <br>
> rivers known today under similar names, e.g. Tisia = Rom. Tisa, <br>
> Hung. Tisza; Tibisia (TIFHSAS) = Rom. Timis, Hung. Temes etc. <br>
> Marisia for Mures, Maros has been dealt with here recently.<br>
> <br>
> As a side question it's worth asking if this ending –ia after –s- in <br>
> Getica was somehow to represent [sh] heard in auslaut in Romanian <br>
> and Hungarian names (except Tisa/Tisza), and whether it was <br>
> Jordanes' invention or a late-Gothic scribal convention? Something <br>
> like –sj- in Modern Dutch? When writing Gothic prose or poetry with <br>
> the plot back in the Migration period, we'd strongly need these <br>
> names in Gothic. Also for the reconstructed language of course, like <br>
> in Sagkta Anna (maybe Sagktanna F.-o?) af Marisjai (Marisjos).<br>
> <br>
> But back to our question. So, Jordanes feels free (and even <br>
> seemingly prefers) to use feminine river names but he sticks with <br>
> masculine for Dnieper (and Dniester). Is he following spoken Gothic <br>
> here? Maybe he is and maybe he isn't. He uses classical masculine <br>
> Danubius (and Hister) for Danube while the Gothic form was feminine <br>
> Donawi as you've pointed out. Incidentally, you know that the latter <br>
> was borrowed from Gothic by the Slavs, but they made a masculine <br>
> name from it again (Dunavu)! This is probably a reason to dismiss <br>
> Slavic evidence also for Dnieper.<br>
> <br>
> But then let's recall Rígsþula where Danr and Danpr (likely <br>
> reminiscence of Don and Dnieper) are mentioned (Rþ. 48) as two <br>
> brother kings:<br>
> á Danr ok Danpr / dýrar hallir, / æðra óðal / en ér hafið; / þeir <br>
> kunnu vel / kjóli at ríða, / egg at kenna, / undir rjúfa<br>
> Note this þeir – it clearly shows that they are both men. If this <br>
> Danpr and Danpr in Danparstaðir are one and the same name (and it <br>
> seems most probable), then in ON it's an –i- or an –u-stem noun <br>
> masculine. Hence a Gothic reconstruction is likely (but not solely <br>
> possible) to be *Danapr(u)s M., and, to represent or reflect (or <br>
> provoke?) somehow the shift of the –r- into the ending in ON, we <br>
> could go with a compound *Danaprustadeis or the like.<br>
> <br>
> ???<br>
> <br>
> Ualarauans<br>
><br>
<br>
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