<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<!-- Network content -->
<body style="background-color: #ffffff;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" <600cell@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>...> <br>
wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > What's the meaning of Idumiggos?<br>
> <br>
> The Idumings are named in the Old English poem Widsith, line 87, <br>
along<br>
> with the Ests, right before a mention of Ermanaric.<br>
> <br>
> ond mid Eolum ond mid Istum . ond Idumingum.<br>
> Ond ic wæs mid Eormanrice . ealle þrage,<br>
> <br>
> There are two main theories about these: (1) that the name is a<br>
> learned interpolation, being an Anglicisation of the Biblical<br>
> Edomites; (2) that they were a Baltic people, perhaps the same as <br>
the<br>
> Ydumaei, mentioned by Henry of Ymera in the Chronicon Lyvoniae.<br>
> Chambers favours the latter idea (Chambers, pp. 250-252).<br>
<br>
Yes, I also thought of the Edomites when seeing Idumiggos. It could <br>
well be also an early Gothicization of the name, providing a proof <br>
for D'Alquen's theory of i for both short [i] and [e] and u - for <br>
[u] and [o]. Plus the Germanic patronymic –ing-, of course.<br>
<br>
> > Iþ galgin ridun / Gunþirunos "But upon the gallows rode Godrun's"<br>
> > – I guess there's some ON or OE or maybe Gothic metaphor behind <br>
it?<br>
> > Could you please tell us? Gunþiruna – *walakuzjo?<br>
> <br>
> In Norse legend, Guðrún's sons were Sörli and Hamðir and Erpr. Her<br>
> daughter Svanhildr (Jord. Sunilda; mss. variants: Sunielh, Sunihil <br>
<<br>
> Go. *Sunjahildi) was given in marriage to Jörmunrekkr (Ermanaric), <br>
who<br>
> had her trampled to death with horses -- in Völsunga saga because<br>
> suspects her of adultery with his son Randvér; in Snorra Edda the<br>
> trampling seems more impromptu, and the motive isn't made explicit,<br>
> although the account there is just a brief summary. Sörli and <br>
Hamðir<br>
> ride alone to Gothland where they try to take revenge on <br>
Jörmunrekkr.<br>
> (Guðrún has given them armour that makes them immune to iron<br>
> weapons.) They manage to chop off his arms and legs, but don't <br>
have a<br>
> chance to chop off his head before someone (either Jörmunrekkr or<br>
> Odin, depending on the version) suggests throwing stones at them.<br>
> That's how they die. I imagined them as being on the gallows as a<br>
> warning to others; when they arrive at Jörmunrekkr's hall in <br>
Hamðismál<br>
> (14), it says that they find their "sister's son" hanging on a<br>
> gallows. Jörmunrekkr also threatens to bind them with bowstrings <br>
and<br>
> hang them on the gallows (Hamðismál 21). See also the Eddic poem<br>
> Guðrúnarhvöt "Godrun's Incitement", Saxo's Gesta Danorum, and<br>
> Ragnarsdrápa by Bragi Boddason.<br>
<br>
How could I fail to see that Gunþiruna = ON Guðrún! Of course I knew <br>
that story. But thank you very much for your reminding. I'm sure I <br>
was just under a spell of your skaldskapr.<br>
<br>
BTW, you reconstruct *Sunjahildi, not *Swanahildi after ON <br>
Svanhildr. Probably it was a change like Sigurðr for continental <br>
Siegfried (not Siegwart) or Gottormr for Burgundian Godomaris, right?<br>
<br>
> > Augeis kunjis "of Augis's kin"<br>
> <br>
> Jordanes names 'Augis' among the early kings/ancestors of the <br>
Goths.<br>
> Hence Augeis kuni = the Gothic people.<br>
<br>
Yes, I saw that name in Getica, but I thought it was a distortion of <br>
a name on –gais, something like Audagais or the like (cf. Andagis <br>
for *Andagais and a lot of other examples). And if really *Augeis, <br>
what could it mean?<br>
<br>
> > Hraide "of the Hred-Goths" – I guess you have an example of such <br>
a<br>
> > usage in ON or OE?<br>
> <br>
> Yes, e.g. Widsith: "full oft þæ´r wíg ne alæg, þonne Hræ´da here<br>
> heardum sweordum ymb Wistlawudu wergan sceoldun ealdne éþelstól <br>
Ætlan<br>
> léodum."<br>
<br>
I see that I have to re-read the Old English poems. In fact, I was <br>
reading them very superficially and that was years ago.<br>
<br>
> > Uldinis ... arbjans "Uldin's heirs" – I guess it's the same Uldin<br>
> > who was mentioned as a leader of the Danube Huns about 400 CE. <br>
Could<br>
> > the Huns of the Invasion time (375 CE) be called "Uldin's heirs"?<br>
> <br>
> I considered this and have two excuses prepared ;-) (1) Legendary<br>
> chronology is naturally vague and anachronistic, even in direct<br>
> speech, cf. the quote from Widsith above (this is my main <br>
excuse!) --<br>
> just the sort of traditional epithet or kenning that appears in<br>
> Germanic epic poetry, not always with strict regard to its <br>
immediate<br>
> context; (2) different Uldin maybe? An ancestor of the one who <br>
made<br>
> himself known to classical historians?<br>
<br>
Yes, I think your first excuse beats off all critics. In Germanic <br>
epics we indeed find persons acting together who in reality were <br>
divided by many tens of years, like Audawakrs and Airmanareiks. But <br>
the variant of Uldins Uldinis sunus us kunja Uldinigge with a motto <br>
on his shield "Semper Uldin" is also good to think of!<br>
<br>
Ualarauans<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span>
<!-- Start the section with Message In topic -->
<div id="ygrp-actbar">
<span class="left">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/9573;_ylc=X3oDMTM0aGpiZWplBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzk2MDIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMTc2OTcxNTU1BHRwY0lkAzk1NzM-">
Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">0</span>)
</span>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwdGtkMTFsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzk2MDIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMTc2OTcxNTU1?act=reply&messageNum=9602">
<span class="bld">
Reply </span> (via web post)
</a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNjYycDZqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE3Njk3MTU1NQ--" class="bld">
Start a new topic </a>
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vitnav">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXNuaHBsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTE3Njk3MTU1NQ--">Messages</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZXZ2amY2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTE3Njk3MTU1NQ--">Members</a>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- Do not have place to put it yet -->
<div id="ygrp-grft">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<!-- yahoo logo -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-ft">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNzFwdHJzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMTc2OTcxNTU1">
<img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdGk2Zms5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzExNzY5NzE1NTU-">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZ3JjZDQ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMTc2OTcxNTU1">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=">
Unsubscribe </a>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:140px;float: left; clear: none; margin-left: 5px; background:white; margin-bottom:25px ;position:absolute; top:0; right: 0;">
<!-- Network content -->
<!-- Start vitality -->
<div id="ygrp-vital">
<div id="vithd">Recent Activity</div>
<ul style="list-style-type:none; padding: 0; margin: 2px 0;">
<li style="clear: both;">
<div class="ct" style="float: right;"><span style="display:none"> </span>1</div>
<div class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdHZlamZvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzExNzY5NzE1NTU-">New Members</a></div>
</li>
</ul>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNzFlNGY1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTE3Njk3MTU1NQ--">
Visit Your Group </a>
</div>
<div id="hd">SPONSORED LINKS</div>
<div id="ov">
<ul>
<li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjZDljaXNnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMTAyMDU5OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3MzkyMDYEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExNzY5NzE1NTU-?t=ms&k=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w1=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w2=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&c=2&s=75&g=2&.sig=HcA2Gka9ver96eXrT3Jqlg">Nh lake region real estate</a></li>
<li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjN2xiZTRvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMTAyMDU5OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3MzkyMDYEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExNzY5NzE1NTU-?t=ms&k=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&w1=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w2=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&c=2&s=75&g=2&.sig=VzceW82Yh9iNe-OnKKJhSA">New hampshire lake region real estate</a></li>
</ul>
</div>
<!-- Network content -->
<div id="nc">
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Top Scientist</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jiim6kh/M=493064.10322711.10977673.9997527/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1176978755/A=4438957/R=0/SIG=111octuig/*http://www.bix.com/contest/5406">10 Greatest Ever</a></p>
<p>Share and vote</p>
<p>on Bix.com!</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Ads on Yahoo!</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12ie9oj1s/M=493064.9803227.10510220.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1176978755/A=3848643/R=0/SIG=131q47hek/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2005&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups4&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50">Learn more now.</a></p>
<p>Reach customers</p>
<p>searching for you.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Y! GeoCities</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12irltn7m/M=493064.9803219.10510212.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1176978755/A=3848531/R=0/SIG=11vts2tqq/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42416/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/">Create a Web Site</a></p>
<p>Easy-to-use tools.</p>
<p>Get started now.</p> </div>
</div>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=9602/stime=1176971555/nc1=4438957/nc2=3848643/nc3=3848531" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
#ygrp-text{
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p{
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-tpmsgs{
font-family: Arial;
clear: both;
}
#ygrp-vitnav{
padding-top: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-vitnav a{
padding: 0 1px;
}
#ygrp-actbar{
clear: both;
margin: 25px 0;
white-space:nowrap;
color: #666;
text-align: right;
}
#ygrp-actbar .left{
float: left;
white-space:nowrap;
}
.bld{font-weight:bold;}
#ygrp-grft{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
padding: 15px 0;
}
#ygrp-ft{
font-family: verdana;
font-size: 77%;
border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a {
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc {
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o {font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq {margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->