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<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" <600cell@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>...> <br>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > Ana Danaprais stažam (et passim) "on the banks of the Dniepr" <br>
it's<br>
> > after ON Danparstašir, isn't it? *Danaprs as I can gather is <br>
thought<br>
> > to be an i-stem fem. Jordanes used Danaper masc. and one time<br>
> > Danaprum neutr. (Get. 30: magnumque illud Danaprum Taurumque<br>
> > montem..., if illud is not a typo for illum acc. masc. here). The<br>
> > formation is probably the same as in Danaster /-trum. In ON a re-<br>
> > distribution (Neuverteilung) of morphemes took place and the <br>
final<br>
> > r- of the stem became a flective ending, hence Danpr, gen. <br>
Danpar.<br>
> > Cf. also later Slavic forms: ORuss. DnEpru > Russ. Dnepr, Ukr.<br>
> > Dnipro - all masc. All this leads me to think that Gothic had a<br>
> > form like *Danaprus M.-u or *Danaprs M.-a/-i, in which case gen.<br>
> > would be *Danapraus or *Danapris. BTW., are you sure that it was<br>
> > staža "banks", not stadeis "places" (as in ON). Ana Danapraus<br>
> > stadim? Or better as a compound *Danaprustadeis/<wbr>-staža?<br>
> <br>
> Atlakviša, stanza 5 'ok staši Danpar' points to Go. stadeis, but 'į<br>
> Danparstöšum' of Hervarar saga could be either. In one version <br>
this<br>
> is the name of the district, with Įrheimar being the citadel, in<br>
> another version Įrheimar is the district, 'į Danparstöšum' the <br>
citadel<br>
> -- so perhaps it was already unclear to compilers of the saga. G.<br>
> Turville Petre notes in his edition of Hervarar saga, p. 83 "the <br>
word<br>
> probably means 'on the banks of the Dnjepr". I guessed at <br>
*Danaprs,<br>
> fi., since river names are typically feminine in Old Norse -- <br>
assuming<br>
> that this was an ancient Germanic trend; also because of the noun<br>
> 'ahva'. Are there tendencies regarding the gender of river names <br>
in<br>
> Latin that Jordanes might have been following, or breaking with?<br>
> Thomas Czarnecki reconstructed *Donawi for Danube (fi.?). I'll <br>
look<br>
> into this though. Are there any more rivers mentioned in the <br>
Gothic<br>
> Bible fragments besides Iaurdanus ahva? Any Gothic river names <br>
that<br>
> have survived in Eastern Europe?<br>
<br>
I've tried to make a little investigation of rivernames by Jordanes, <br>
without claims to completeness (there must be professional studies <br>
of this subject), and I found that in cases where there had been no <br>
classical tradition he uses mostly feminine names. Examples: Get. 30 <br>
Uagosolam F. acc. sg.; Get. 33 Tisia F., but ibid. Flutausis M.; <br>
Get. 35 (also 96) Uiscla F. (clearly from a Gothic source, alongside <br>
classical Uistula); Get. 114 Marisia F., Miliare N. (?) et Gilpil <br>
(?) et Grisia (F.); Get. 178 Tisia Tibisiaque et Dricca (all F.). <br>
The last ones exactly parallel Priscus' hO TE DRHKWN LEGOMENOS KAI <br>
hO TIGAS (misspelled for TISAS?) KAI hO TIFHSAS in Fr. 8 all <br>
masculine). Some of them are usually identified by scholars with the <br>
rivers known today under similar names, e.g. Tisia = Rom. Tisa, <br>
Hung. Tisza; Tibisia (TIFHSAS) = Rom. Timis, Hung. Temes etc. <br>
Marisia for Mures, Maros has been dealt with here recently.<br>
<br>
As a side question it's worth asking if this ending ia after s- in <br>
Getica was somehow to represent [sh] heard in auslaut in Romanian <br>
and Hungarian names (except Tisa/Tisza), and whether it was <br>
Jordanes' invention or a late-Gothic scribal convention? Something <br>
like sj- in Modern Dutch? When writing Gothic prose or poetry with <br>
the plot back in the Migration period, we'd strongly need these <br>
names in Gothic. Also for the reconstructed language of course, like <br>
in Sagkta Anna (maybe Sagktanna F.-o?) af Marisjai (Marisjos).<br>
<br>
But back to our question. So, Jordanes feels free (and even <br>
seemingly prefers) to use feminine river names but he sticks with <br>
masculine for Dnieper (and Dniester). Is he following spoken Gothic <br>
here? Maybe he is and maybe he isn't. He uses classical masculine <br>
Danubius (and Hister) for Danube while the Gothic form was feminine <br>
Donawi as you've pointed out. Incidentally, you know that the latter <br>
was borrowed from Gothic by the Slavs, but they made a masculine <br>
name from it again (Dunavu)! This is probably a reason to dismiss <br>
Slavic evidence also for Dnieper.<br>
<br>
But then let's recall Rķgsžula where Danr and Danpr (likely <br>
reminiscence of Don and Dnieper) are mentioned (Rž. 48) as two <br>
brother kings:<br>
į Danr ok Danpr / dżrar hallir, / ęšra óšal / en ér hafiš; / žeir <br>
kunnu vel / kjóli at rķša, / egg at kenna, / undir rjśfa<br>
Note this žeir it clearly shows that they are both men. If this <br>
Danpr and Danpr in Danparstašir are one and the same name (and it <br>
seems most probable), then in ON it's an i- or an u-stem noun <br>
masculine. Hence a Gothic reconstruction is likely (but not solely <br>
possible) to be *Danapr(u)s M., and, to represent or reflect (or <br>
provoke?) somehow the shift of the r- into the ending in ON, we <br>
could go with a compound *Danaprustadeis or the like.<br>
<br>
???<br>
<br>
Ualarauans<br>
<br>
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