<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<!-- Network content -->
<body style="background-color: #ffffff;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p><br>
> So, Streitberg was right. But I, too, have got an impression, that, <br>
> as we see <...> additions and expanded descriptive translations in <br>
> the German text, so the Gothic translator as well could have added <br>
> something when translating the obscure Greek here, but these <br>
> additions were not included in the Sacred Book, but stayed as if <br>
> being thought to oneself:<br>
<br>
Thanks for your clear and detailed explanation. I can well believe it<br>
was something like that: the 'ak' clause contrasts with (and excludes)<br>
some unstated idea/possibility that can be inferred from the preceding<br>
text.<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>> <br>
> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > ni witum ... ak gataujam "We know not ... but that is what we <br>
> shall<br>
> > > do". It would seem as if there's an opposition "ni ak" in the<br>
> > > sense of Germ. "nicht - sondern". That would be a strange phrase,<br>
> > > where knowing and doing are something that substitute for each<br>
> > > other. German would have aber or trotzdem and Gothic probably iž <br>
> or<br>
> > > swežauh. Correct me if I misunderstand here something.<br>
> > <br>
> > Streitberg cites the following examples of 'ak' "ohne vorausgehende<br>
> > Neg.: aber". How do these sound to you?<br>
> > <br>
> > iž žo waurstwa ni gatawidedjau in im žoei anžar ainshun ni <br>
> gatawida,<br>
> > frawaurht ni habaidedeina; iž nu jah gasehvun mik jah fijaidedun <br>
> jah<br>
> > mik jah attan meinana. ak (ALLA) ei usfullnodedi waurd žata <br>
> gamelido<br>
> > in witoda ize: ei fijaidedun mik arwjo (J 15:24-25).<br>
> > <br>
> > jah žahtedun du sis misso qižandans, jabai qižam: us himina, qižiž:<br>
> > ažžan duhve ni galaubideduž imma? ak (ALLA) qižam: us mannam, <br>
> uhtedun<br>
> > žo managein. (Mk 11:31-32)<br>
> > <br>
> > daga hvammeh was at izwis in alh laisjands jah ni gripuž mik: ak<br>
> > (ALLA) ei usfullnodedeina bokos. (Mk 14:49).<br>
> <br>
> I've consulted the Revidierte Elberfelder Übersetzung. Let's compare:<br>
> <br>
> Wenn ich nicht die Werke unter ihnen getan hätte, die kein anderer <br>
> getan hat, so hätten sie keine Sünde; jetzt aber haben sie <sie> <br>
> gesehen und <doch> sowohl mich als auch meinen Vater gehasst. Aber <br>
> <dies geschieht>, damit das Wort erfüllt würde, das in ihrem Gesetz <br>
> geschrieben steht: sie haben mich ohne Ursache gehasst(J 15:24-25).<br>
> <br>
> Und sie überlegten miteinander und sprachen: wenn wir sagen: vom <br>
> Himmel, so wird er sagen: warum habt ihr ihm denn nicht geglaubt? <br>
> Sollen wir aber sagen: von Menschen? Sie fürchteten das Volk...<br>
> (Mk 11:31-32)<br>
> <br>
> Täglich war ich bei euch, lehrte im Tempel, und ihr habt mich nicht <br>
> ergriffen; - aber damit die Schriften erfüllt werden! (Mk 14:49)<br>
> <br>
> So, Streitberg was right. But I, too, have got an impression, that, <br>
> as we see <...> additions and expanded descriptive translations in <br>
> the German text, so the Gothic translator as well could have added <br>
> something when translating the obscure Greek here, but these <br>
> additions were not included in the Sacred Book, but stayed as if <br>
> being thought to oneself:<br>
> <br>
> iž žo waurstwa ni gatawidedjau in im žoei anžar ainshun ni gatawida, <br>
> frawaurht ni habaidedeina; iž nu jah gasehvun mik jah fijaidedun jah <br>
> mik jah attan meinana. <ažžan gatawida žo ni du briggan ins in <br>
> fraistubnjai> ak ei usfullnodedi waurd žata gamelido in witoda ize: <br>
> ei fijaidedun mik arwjo;<br>
> <br>
> jah žahtedun du sis misso qižandans, jabai qižam: us himina, qižiž: <br>
> ažžan duhve ni galaubideduž imma? <in žizei jah ni qižam: us <br>
> himina>, ak qižam: us mannam, uhtedun žo managein;<br>
> <br>
> daga hvammeh was at izwis in alh laisjands jah ni gripuž mik: <br>
> <dužžeei ni was žar ei gripeina mik>, ak ei usfullnodedeina bokos.<br>
> <br>
> > In each instance, there is however a negative sentence directly or<br>
> > indirectly preceding the 'ak' clause. In J 15:25 the 'ak' clause <br>
> does<br>
> > indeed offer an alternative that might be inferred to exclude the<br>
> > negatives (even though another clause intervenes); but I take it<br>
> > 'sondern' would sound odd there? In Mk 14:49, presumably to have<br>
> > seized him would exclude the possibility of the scriptures being<br>
> > fulfilled. But this, again, is only an inference. Mk 11:32 is<br>
> > curious, since although 'ak' follows a negative clause, the 'ak'<br>
> > clause contrasts with something other than what is negated there!<br>
> > Anyway, in the example from John, 'iž' follows negatives with no<br>
> > direct exclusion, and presumably just the same degree in inferred<br>
> > exclusion (I'm probably talking nonsense by now...) so maybe it is<br>
> > safest for me to use 'iž' in that verse.<br>
> <br>
> Ualarauans<br>
><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span>
<!-- Start the section with Message In topic -->
<div id="ygrp-actbar">
<span class="left">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/9573;_ylc=X3oDMTM0NnZqZ2RxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzk2MjIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMTc3MDYzNzk3BHRwY0lkAzk1NzM-">
Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">0</span>)
</span>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwaDZlYW02BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzk2MjIEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMTc3MDYzNzk3?act=reply&messageNum=9622">
<span class="bld">
Reply </span> (via web post)
</a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcDc4OWY4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE3NzA2Mzc5Nw--" class="bld">
Start a new topic </a>
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vitnav">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaTBqYzViBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTE3NzA2Mzc5Nw--">Messages</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYXNvaXE4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTE3NzA2Mzc5Nw--">Members</a>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- Do not have place to put it yet -->
<div id="ygrp-grft">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<!-- yahoo logo -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-ft">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZDRvaWJuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMTc3MDYzNzk3">
<img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmb3F2cmQ0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzExNzcwNjM3OTc-">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYTI2cnFiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMTc3MDYzNzk3">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=">
Unsubscribe </a>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:140px;float: left; clear: none; margin-left: 5px; background:white; margin-bottom:25px ;position:absolute; top:0; right: 0;">
<!-- Network content -->
<!-- Start vitality -->
<div id="ygrp-vital">
<div id="vithd">Recent Activity</div>
<ul style="list-style-type:none; padding: 0; margin: 2px 0;">
<li style="clear: both;">
<div class="ct" style="float: right;"><span style="display:none"> </span>1</div>
<div class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmYmVvdWkyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzExNzcwNjM3OTc-">New Members</a></div>
</li>
<li style="clear: both;">
<div class="ct" style="float: right;"><span style="display:none"> </span>1</div>
<div class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJnanRqNXFmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZmaWxlcwRzdGltZQMxMTc3MDYzNzk3">New Files</a></div>
</li>
</ul>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOG5xNXE5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTE3NzA2Mzc5Nw--">
Visit Your Group </a>
</div>
<div id="hd">SPONSORED LINKS</div>
<div id="ov">
<ul>
<li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjbW5oMmRjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMTAyMDU5OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3MzkyMDYEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExNzcwNjM3OTc-?t=ms&k=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w1=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w2=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&c=2&s=75&g=2&.sig=HcA2Gka9ver96eXrT3Jqlg">Nh lake region real estate</a></li>
<li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjNmJtb3ZmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMTAyMDU5OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3MzkyMDYEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExNzcwNjM3OTc-?t=ms&k=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&w1=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w2=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&c=2&s=75&g=2&.sig=VzceW82Yh9iNe-OnKKJhSA">New hampshire lake region real estate</a></li>
</ul>
</div>
<!-- Network content -->
<div id="nc">
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Top Scientist</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jopp26d/M=493064.10322711.10977673.9997527/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1177070997/A=4438957/R=0/SIG=111octuig/*http://www.bix.com/contest/5406">10 Greatest Ever</a></p>
<p>Share and vote</p>
<p>on Bix.com!</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Ads on Yahoo!</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12iohr7n7/M=493064.9803227.10510220.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1177070997/A=3848643/R=0/SIG=131q47hek/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2005&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups4&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50">Learn more now.</a></p>
<p>Reach customers</p>
<p>searching for you.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Y! GeoCities</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12i14fgb1/M=493064.9803219.10510212.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1177070997/A=3848539/R=0/SIG=12ban20bv/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42416/*http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/y360/?v=f">Free Blogging</a></p>
<p>Share your views</p>
<p>with the world.</p> </div>
</div>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=9622/stime=1177063797/nc1=4438957/nc2=3848643/nc3=3848539" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
#ygrp-text{
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p{
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-tpmsgs{
font-family: Arial;
clear: both;
}
#ygrp-vitnav{
padding-top: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-vitnav a{
padding: 0 1px;
}
#ygrp-actbar{
clear: both;
margin: 25px 0;
white-space:nowrap;
color: #666;
text-align: right;
}
#ygrp-actbar .left{
float: left;
white-space:nowrap;
}
.bld{font-weight:bold;}
#ygrp-grft{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
padding: 15px 0;
}
#ygrp-ft{
font-family: verdana;
font-size: 77%;
border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a {
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc {
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o {font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq {margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->