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<p>Objections if I try to use some Gothic below?<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" <600cell@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Interesting that Danaper / Danaprum should buck the trend of <br>
feminine<br>
> river names. Could be significant then... Alternatively, turning <br>
to<br>
> a little devil's advocatry myself (and ignoring the possible <br>
neuter):<br>
> could that be because -er was just too convenient in suggesting a<br>
> masculine noun of the Latin second declension?<br>
<br>
Jai, mahteig ist. Iž jabai a(i)r žis gutiskins namins ni fairaihta, <br>
žatist jabai Danaprs so qinakundo was, duhve ni swe Danapris in <br>
Lateiniskon andnuman wesi? So waurdaskaunei jaina in žizai samon <br>
Weikipaidjos insahtai gataiknida ist swe weitwodida in meleinim <br>
spedikrekiskaim. Hvis kunjis was so fraihnan wildedjau. Sokjan jab-<br>
bigitan duginna. Ažžan Danastrum (hvanadrus, andizuh gumakunds <br>
aižžau unqiukund) jah fram Ammianau Markailleinau žuht ist brukjan. <br>
Aufto jah in Danapra(i) hva gamagi.<br>
<br>
That's indeed possible. But if er wasn't a part of the the Gothic <br>
name, i.e. if it was *Danaprs F.i, why not Danapris F. in Latin? <br>
This form is mentioned in the same Wikipedia article as attested <br>
in "the late Greek authors" (DANAPRIS). What gender has it been <br>
there, I wonder? I'll try to find out. But Danastrum acc. (M or N) <br>
for Dniester seems to be used also by Amm. Marcellinus (XXXI. <br>
3.3,5). Could be relevant for Dnieper too.<br>
<br>
> Old English river<br>
> names include a lot that seem to be weak feminine: Śse (Ouse), Lżge<br>
> (Lye), Deorwente (Derwent), Wķsle (Vistula), Humbre (Humber), Temes<br>
(e)<br>
> (Thames). Humbre also indeclinable, Temes also strong feminine,<br>
> sometimes also with Latinate endings. But Fifeldór (Eider), neuter<br>
> due to its second element 'dór' "door". Ilfing (Elbing), ? Rķn<br>
> (Rhine), m. or f. -- OHG m., ON f. Dónua (Danube), f. indecl. --<br>
> obviously taken from Latin.<br>
> <br>
> What do you think to the etymology suggested in the Wikipedia entry<br>
> Dnieper [ <br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper_River#Name_etymology">http://en.wikipedia<wbr>.org/wiki/<wbr>Dnieper_River#<wbr>Name_etymology</a> ],<br>
> which derives the name from Sarmatian *Da:nu apara "the river to <br>
the<br>
> rear"? What would the gender of Sarmatian *da:nu be, I wonder? <br>
Since<br>
> the East Germanic peoples had close contacts with the Sarmatians, <br>
the<br>
> Goths might just have been influenced by that. Or maybe not...<br>
<br>
Gamains ist managaim mitons ei Dan(u)s, Danapr(u)s, Danastr(u)s jah <br>
Donawi žana arjaniskan waurdastaf danu in sis haband. Žata magi <br>
Danaus u-stamn fauragaredan. Istu qinakunda aižžau gumakunds? Bi <br>
anžarana waurdastaf Danapr(a)is jad-Danastr(<wbr>a)is managos sind in <br>
midjaim mannam razdaleisaim missaqisseis. "Afarahva" jah "Fauraahva" <br>
drunjond sunjaba fraisandeins, iž aina ist so managaizo skeireino <br>
žatainei.<br>
<br>
This is a common opinion that Don, Dnieper, Dniester and Danube <br>
contain the element Iranian da:nu "river". That could account for <br>
the u-stem of Go. Danus "Don". Fem. or masc.? Of the second element <br>
in Dnieper (and Dniester) there are diverse opinions of <br>
linguists. "The river to the rear" and "the river to the front" <br>
sound indeed tempting, but are still only one of the existing <br>
interpretations.<br>
<br>
Nist mis iupažro nih dalažro atgiban kunnan kuni danaus žis <br>
arjaniskins. Gakunjo is/izos žata nehvisto Samskritisko Danu- jažže <br>
gumakundaize jažže qinakundaize mwžulaugikeinaize qiuwaihte namo <br>
wisan žugkeiž. Razda so niuja-allanisko waurdis don, maizaražjo <br>
dęttę "wato", "ahva" (ufta in ahvanamnam) brukeiž, ažžan so n.-<br>
allanisko kuni namne ju laggo fralaus, jah swstemo namne izos <br>
agglutinateif warž (atu Taurkim ganuman?).<br>
<br>
Unfortunately I don't know the gender of Iranian da:nu. Its closest <br>
cognate Sanskrit Da:nu as a personal name seems to be used both for <br>
male and female mythological characters. Ossetic has don,<br>
pl. dęttę "water", "river" (often in rivernames), but Ossetic has <br>
long lost the grammatical category of gender in nouns, its nominal <br>
system became agglutinative (under Turkic influence?).<br>
<br>
> Should we also consider the possibility of *Danapair or *Danapar<br>
> (masculine or feminine i-stem?; masculine a-stem?), with deletion <br>
of<br>
> nominative -s after /r/ following a short unstressed syllable?<br>
<br>
Jah *Danapar mahteig wisan žugkeiž.<br>
<br>
*Danapar seems possible too.<br>
<br>
> I'm not convinced that the kings names would have a bearing on the<br>
> gender of the rivers, since even if the rivers had been feminine, <br>
the<br>
> kings names would probably be masculine. But then, it's curious <br>
that<br>
> these two names should occur together. I wonder if it's just <br>
chance<br>
> that "riding" ships is mentioned as one of their skills. Perhaps<br>
> there is some memory behind this verse of a line in some other poem<br>
> where the two names were understood as rivers. In which case, I <br>
might<br>
> very cautiously be leaning towards a masculine i-stem (rather than <br>
a<br>
> u-stem, because of the lack of u-umlaut in Old Norse; lack of i-<br>
umlaut<br>
> is typical in short masculine i-stems).<br>
<br>
Jai, gatawida'k žata!<br>
<br>
Yes, I did it! :-)<br>
<br>
Ualarauans<br>
<br>
P.S.<br>
<br>
Niujawaurdja žo iupa bruhtona / Neologisms used above<br>
<br>
As expected first when trying to write Gothic you find out what <br>
words you really need :-)<br>
<br>
word form (cf. Go. gudaskaunei "the form of God", ibnaskauns "equal <br>
in form" - Koebler) waurdaskaunei, fn.<br>
<br>
Wikipedia Weikipaidja, -paidia fo.<br>
<br>
accusative (G. Wenfall) hvanadrus, mi.<br>
<br>
[nominative (G. Werfall) hvasdrus, hvazdrus, mi.]<br>
<br>
[dative (G. Wemfall) hvammadrus, mi.]<br>
<br>
[genitive (G. Wesfall) hvisdrus, hvizdrus, mi.]<br>
<br>
[instrumental (analog.) hvedrus, mi.]<br>
<br>
neuter (gramm.) unqiukunds, a.<br>
<br>
Iranian, Indo-Iranian (IndoIr. self-name arya) arjanisks, a.<br>
<br>
(Indo-)Iranian (noun) (IndoIr. self-name arya) Arja mn., Arjo, fn.<br>
<br>
element of a composite word waurdastafs, mi.<br>
<br>
stem (gramm.) (OE stemn, stefn; ON stafn; OHG stam) stamns, mi.<br>
<br>
linguistically competent razdaleis, a.<br>
<br>
to sound (of human voice) (Go. drunjus) drunjon 2.<br>
<br>
cognate (of inanimates) gakunjo, nn.<br>
<br>
Sanskrit (Sanskr. samskrta "elaborated"<wbr>) samskritisks, a.<br>
<br>
mythological (Greek MUQOLOGIKOS) mwžulaugikeins, a.<br>
<br>
[mythology (Greek MUQOLOGIA) mwžulaugia, fo.]<br>
<br>
person, living being (G. Lebewesen) qiuwaihts, fi/cons.<br>
<br>
Ossetic (Osset. Allon "Alan") niuja-allanisks, a.<br>
<br>
plural (gramm.) (G. Mehrzahl) maizaražjo, fn.<br>
<br>
hydronym ahvanamo, nn.<br>
<br>
system (Greek SUSTHMA) swstemo, nn. (dat. swstemin/swstematin<wbr>; gen. <br>
swstemins/swstemati<wbr>ns; nom., acc. pl. swstemona/swstemata<wbr>)<br>
<br>
agglutinative (NLat. agglutinativus) agglutinateifs (g) (b), a.<br>
<br>
Turk (Turkish Türk) Taurks, mi.<br>
<br>
</p>
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