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<p><br>
<br>
Or is the nominative actually 'joulu' and 'juhla' in Finnish: the<br>
former from Proto Nordic, the latter from East Germanic? Unless the<br>
cases were reinterpreted in the process of borrowing...<br>
<br>
<a href="http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joulu">http://fi.wikipedia<wbr>.org/wiki/<wbr>Joulu</a><br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" <600cell@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> <br>
> Many thanks for this Arthur. I read it ages ago, but had completely<br>
> forgotten that detail about the phantom status of *Naubaimbair!<br>
> <br>
> <a href="http://www.modeemi.cs.tut.fi/~david/index.html">http://www.modeemi.<wbr>cs.tut.fi/<wbr>~david/index.<wbr>html</a><br>
> <a href="http://www.modeemi.cs.tut.fi/~david/report.pdf">http://www.modeemi.<wbr>cs.tut.fi/<wbr>~david/report.<wbr>pdf</a><br>
> <br>
> The relevant section is on p. 54. Which leaves us with just 'fruma<br>
> jiuleis' as the name of the month, and no way of knowing whether the<br>
> illegible word was a synonym (*Naubaimbair or otherwise) or something<br>
> else entirely.<br>
> <br>
> Re. alternative names, I just came across the following Old West Norse<br>
> and Old Swedish proposals: Dróttins burðar tíð; gudz födzlo hötidh [<br>
> <a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julfest">http://de.wikipedia<wbr>.org/wiki/<wbr>Julfest</a> ], neither of which caught on. <br>
> So maybe we could have: 'fraujins mel gabaurþais', or similar. Bit of<br>
> a mouthful, I know... Thinks: does the final vowel in Finnish 'juhla'<br>
> and 'joula' imply a specifically East Germanic origin for the<br>
> loanword, as opposed to Proto Germanic -o or Proto Nordic -u? If so,<br>
> we have a nice piece of evidence for the survival of both versions in<br>
> East Germanic: *jaihvla and *jiula.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@<wbr>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Hello again!<br>
> > <br>
> > Sorry, a Druckfehler crept into the URL citation in my previous<br>
> missive. It should read<br>
> > <br>
> > <a href="http://www.modeemi.cs.tut.fi/~david.report.pdf">http://www.modeemi.<wbr>cs.tut.fi/<wbr>~david.report.<wbr>pdf</a><br>
> > <br>
> > Hope it works this time. If not, try googling David Landau +<br>
> Digital Technology + Gothic manuscripts.<br>
> > <br>
> > Ave atque valium.<br>
> > <br>
> > Aizamunds<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > Arthur Jones <arthurobin2002@<wbr>> wrote:<br>
> > Hails frijandeis meinai,<br>
> > <br>
> > Llama Nom has made a number of very salient points regarding the<br>
> calendar. The only problem I see today with any of it is that<br>
> legitimate doubts have recently arisen about the word "Naubaimbair" on<br>
> a palimpsest calendar.<br>
> > <br>
> > Dr. David Landau, of the Tampere (Finland) University of Technology,<br>
> Institute of Software Systems, has written "The Study of Old Texts<br>
> with the Aid of Digital Technology: The Gothic Manuscripts" (a<br>
> dissertation plus subsequent reports), in which he has solved many<br>
> ambiguities arising from unclear, smudged, obscured, torn or missing,<br>
> and other words and phrases in the Codex Argenteus, the Codex<br>
> Ambrosianus, the Salzburg Calendar, Skeireins, and Ravenna Deed. <br>
> > <br>
> > After applying state-of-the-<wbr>art digital scanning and clarifying<br>
> techniques, Dr. Landau has concluded that, where experts heretofore<br>
> thought they saw the word "Naubaimbair" that had been scratched off<br>
> and over-written by Latin characters, they were apparently mistaken.<br>
> His wave-length printouts indeed reveal that the letters removed in<br>
> the palimpsest process did not spell out "November" in Gothic at all.<br>
> > <br>
> > How much doubt does this development cast upon the Gothic calendar<br>
> and its remnants from pre-Christian usage? I have no idea. However, I<br>
> would suggest that we take full account of Dr. Landau's findings<br>
> (completed, incidentally, in cooperation with Dr. Lars Munkhammar,<br>
> University of Uppsala, who is both custodian of, and authority on, the<br>
> Codex Argenteus, and who has been a key figure in the emerging<br>
> "mini-Renaissance" of Gothic history and culture in Bulgaria in the<br>
> past several years).<br>
> > <br>
> > You can find the digital scanning results here:<br>
> > <br>
> > <a href="http://www.modeemi.cs.tut.fi/~david.report.pdf">http://www.modeemi.<wbr>cs.tut.fi/<wbr>~david.report.<wbr>pdf</a><br>
> > <br>
> > The section on "Deciphering the Palimpsests" appears on pages 60-61.<br>
> > <br>
> > Thuk golja,<br>
> > <br>
> > Aizamunds<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > llama_nom <600cell@> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > Probably the native months, as elsewhere in Germania, didn't<br>
> > originally match up perfectly with the Roman months. The two Yule<br>
> > months would have originally marked, more or less, one month's length<br>
> > of time before yule (the midwinter feast) and one month's length of<br>
> > time after, as defined according to native tradition. The Icelandic<br>
> > 'ýlir', for example, begins on the second day of the week falling<br>
> > within November 10-17. From the Calendar, it seems that the Goths, by<br>
> > the time it was written, had altered this system to bring their native<br>
> > month names into line with the Roman months, so that 'fruma jiuleis'<br>
> > became a synonym for November. The choice of November or December may<br>
> > have been a bit arbitrary when this process of co-ordinating calendars<br>
> > was first undertaken. Since the original month would have overlapped<br>
> > with part of December, it could just as easily have come to be the<br>
> > name for that month, as did its Old English equivalent 'se æ´rra<br>
> > jéola'. If they called the second yule month 'anþar jiuleis' and<br>
> > co-ordinated it with December, at least it wouldn't sound as anomalous<br>
> > as doing this would with the Old English 'se æftera jéola' which<br>
> > instead was naturally seen as the nearest equivalent to January. But<br>
> > I suppose, for all we know, the Goths might have inserted some other<br>
> > name as the native synonym for December, or else used no native<br>
> > synonym at all. Or maybe the tradition that the two yule-months were<br>
> > consecutive was too strong.<br>
> > <br>
> > LN<br>
> > <br>
> > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > The month name 'fruma jiuleis' which appears in the Calendar as a<br>
> > > > synonym for 'Naubaimbair' is masculine singular, as shown by the<br>
> > > > adjective: a long ja-stem like hairdeis. It corresponds to ON ýlir<br>
> > > > (masculine singular) and Anglian OE giuli (mentioned by Bede:<br>
> > > > Primusque eorum mensis, quem Latini Januarium vocant, dicitur<br>
> > > > Giuli...December Giuli, eodem quo Januarius nomine, vocatur... <br>
> > > Menses<br>
> > > > Giuli a conversione solis in auctum diei, quia unus eorum<br>
præcedit,<br>
> > > > alius subsequitur, nomina accipiunt (cited in the OED)) -- in<br>
later<br>
> > > > West Saxon OE the months before and after the feast are called 'se<br>
> > > > æ´rra géola' and 'se æftera géola', with a change of declension to<br>
> > > > masculine n-stems.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > It would be nice if we could call December fruma jiuleis and <br>
> > > January – anþar jiuleis. But why November in the Calender?<br>
> > > <br>
> > > > The midwinter feast itself -- the 12 days of Christmas -- is<br>
neuter<br>
> > > > plural in ON and Icelandic (jól), and sometimes in Old English<br>
(æ´r<br>
> > > > géolum = advent). Maybe the tendency to make it singular came as <br>
> > > the<br>
> > > > word's meaning changed to apply to the Christian festival. In <br>
> > > view of<br>
> > > > which, maybe it is worth having a more specific word after all<br>
for <br>
> > > the<br>
> > > > day itself when Christ's birth is commemorated, and keep the old<br>
> > > > grammar for the festive 12 days as a whole.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > I support the idea of having separate terms for the pagan and the <br>
> > > Christian festival. For the latter maybe smth like Xristujiul in <br>
> > > singular?<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Ualarauans<br>
> > ><br>
> > <br>
> > ARTHUR A. JONES<br>
> > <br>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > ARTHUR A. JONES<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
> ><br>
><br>
<br>
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margin: 0;
}
o {font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq {margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
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</html><!--End group email -->