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--- faltin2001 <<a href="mailto:d.faltin%40hispeed.ch">d.faltin@hispeed.<wbr>ch</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> it should stand as unclear dirk....when the goths<br>
invaded spain it contends that they drove out other<br>
enemys there which included the roman legions there<br>
and others, etc....oscar<br>
> Hi Oscar,<br>
> <br>
> are the many question marks an expression of<br>
> disbelief or a sign that <br>
> you are unclear about the content of my comment?<br>
> <br>
> Just to clarify, there is really no doubt today that<br>
> the Visigoths <br>
> who settled in Spain after 507 didn't speak Gothic,<br>
> but Latin or <br>
> better a Latin military pidgin that included<br>
> Germanic terms. The fact <br>
> that all royal documents issued by Visigothic kings<br>
> are in Latin <br>
> shouldn't surprise. The same is true for Italy. Yet,<br>
> even in private <br>
> and Arian church documents there is no use and not<br>
> even a reference <br>
> to an other language, let alone Gothic. In Italy at<br>
> least some <br>
> private and clerical documents use Gothic, albeit in<br>
> a static, archic <br>
> and formulaic way that shows that the language was<br>
> more or less dead <br>
> already in daily use. <br>
> <br>
> Also, like in Italy, Visigothic kings never seem to<br>
> have need for <br>
> interpreters. They can speak freely communicated<br>
> with the natives, <br>
> which would at least require them to have been<br>
> bilingual. Finally, <br>
> the Frankish Tabula Gentes of 550 AD suggests<br>
> directly that the <br>
> Visigoths of Spain were Latin-speakers. <br>
> <br>
> I suppose the federate army under Wallia who entered<br>
> Spain in the <br>
> early 5th century would have been mostly<br>
> Gothic/Germanic speaking. <br>
> Yet, in the subsequent 3 or 4 generations in Gaul<br>
> Gothic was no doubt <br>
> abandoned in favour of Latin. When the Gothic<br>
> kingdom was destroyed <br>
> by the Franks in 507, the remaining refugees who<br>
> fled to Spain would <br>
> have ben Latin/Romanic speakers. And again, the<br>
> documentary evidence <br>
> of the subsequent decades allows for no other<br>
> conclusion.<br>
> <br>
> Cheers,<br>
> Dirk<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, OSCAR HERRERA<br>
> <duke.co@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > ????????????<br>
> > <br>
> > faltin2001 <d.faltin@..<wbr>.> wrote: --- In<br>
> gothic-<br>
> <a href="mailto:l%40yahoogroups.com">l@yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>, "Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard" <br>
> > <manielombard@<wbr>> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Perhaps I've used an unsuitable font, so here a<br>
> repost:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Could Tulaytula, the Arabic form of Toledo, have<br>
> <br>
> > > been derived from *Tôlêtula", a Gothic<br>
> hypocorism of *Tôlêtô < <br>
> Latin <br>
> > > Tôlêtum? Perhaps *Taúlêtô should be regarded as<br>
> the Gothic etymon <br>
> > > (long unstressed "ô" having merged in Vulgar<br>
> Latin with <br>
> short /o/, <br>
> > and <br>
> > > seeing that Arabic uses a short "u" preceded by<br>
> an emphatic t, in <br>
> > > order to reproduce an "o"; long "ê" is given as<br>
> "ay" [= "ê" in <br>
> spoken <br>
> > > Arabic]), which would give *Taúlêtula.<br>
> > <br>
> > Hi,<br>
> > <br>
> > I don't think so, because the Goths in Spain<br>
> didn't speak Gothic, <br>
> but <br>
> > Latin or some vulgar Latin with a few<br>
> Germanic/Gothic remnants. The <br>
> > Tabula gentes of about 550AD suggests so, and<br>
> there is no hint that <br>
> > they had any difficulties communicating with the<br>
> local population <br>
> in <br>
> > Romanic without interpretors.<wbr>There is also no<br>
> indication that <br>
> written <br>
> > Gothic was used in Gaul or Spain. After all, the<br>
> Goths in Gaul and <br>
> > Spain were a Roman federate army, which also<br>
> included many Roman <br>
> > provincials and Latin was no doubt the lingua<br>
> franca of the various <br>
> > western Gothic groups since the 5th century. <br>
> > <br>
> > Cheers,<br>
> > Dirk<br>
> > <br>
> > ><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been<br>
> removed]<br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
<br>
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