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<p>How long did it take Norse to die out among the Normans?<br>
Certainly less than a century (from 911 settlement to no later than the<br>
first quarter of the eleventh). However, the Normans continued to have a<br>
consciousness as a people of Scandinavian descent for at least two<br>
centuries after that.<br>
I'd suspect a similar process amongst the Gothic rulers of Spain & Italy.<br>
<br>
TM<br>
<br>
OSCAR HERRERA wrote:<br>
><br>
<br>
> --- faltin2001 <<a href="mailto:d.faltin%40hispeed.ch">d.faltin@hispeed.<wbr>ch</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
>> it should stand as unclear dirk....when the goths<br>
> invaded spain it contends that they drove out other enemys there which<br>
> included the roman legions there and others, etc....oscar<br>
>> Hi Oscar,<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> are the many question marks an expression of disbelief or a sign that you<br>
>> are unclear about the content of my comment?<br>
>><br>
>> Just to clarify, there is really no doubt today that<br>
>> the Visigoths who settled in Spain after 507 didn't speak Gothic, but<br>
>> Latin or<br>
>> better a Latin military pidgin that included Germanic terms. The fact<br>
>> that all royal documents issued by Visigothic kings are in Latin shouldn't<br>
>> surprise. The same is true for Italy. Yet, even in private and Arian<br>
>> church documents there is no use and not even a reference to an other<br>
>> language, let alone Gothic. In Italy at least some private and clerical<br>
>> documents use Gothic, albeit in a static, archic and formulaic way that<br>
>> shows that the language was more or less dead already in daily use.<br>
>><br>
>> Also, like in Italy, Visigothic kings never seem to<br>
>> have need for interpreters. They can speak freely communicated with the<br>
>> natives, which would at least require them to have been bilingual.<br>
>> Finally,<br>
>> the Frankish Tabula Gentes of 550 AD suggests directly that the Visigoths<br>
>> of Spain were Latin-speakers.<br>
>><br>
>> I suppose the federate army under Wallia who entered<br>
>> Spain in the<br>
>> early 5th century would have been mostly Gothic/Germanic speaking.<br>
>> Yet, in the subsequent 3 or 4 generations in Gaul<br>
>> Gothic was no doubt<br>
>> abandoned in favour of Latin. When the Gothic kingdom was destroyed by the<br>
>> Franks in 507, the remaining refugees who<br>
>> fled to Spain would have ben Latin/Romanic speakers. And again, the<br>
>> documentary evidence of the subsequent decades allows for no other<br>
>> conclusion.<br>
>><br>
>> Cheers,<br>
>> Dirk<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, OSCAR HERRERA<br>
>> <duke.co@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>><br>
>>> ????????????<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> faltin2001 <d.faltin@..<wbr>.> wrote: --- In<br>
>> gothic- <a href="mailto:l%40yahoogroups.com">l@yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>, "Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard"<br>
>>> <manielombard@<wbr>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Perhaps I've used an unsuitable font, so here a<br>
>>>><br>
>> repost:<br>
>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Could Tulaytula, the Arabic form of Toledo, have<br>
>>>><br>
>><br>
>>>> been derived from *Tôlêtula", a Gothic<br>
>> hypocorism of *Tôlêtô < Latin<br>
>><br>
>>>> Tôlêtum? Perhaps *Taúlêtô should be regarded as<br>
>>>><br>
>> the Gothic etymon<br>
>>>> (long unstressed "ô" having merged in Vulgar<br>
>>>><br>
>> Latin with<br>
>> short /o/,<br>
>>> and<br>
>>>> seeing that Arabic uses a short "u" preceded by<br>
>> an emphatic t, in<br>
>>>> order to reproduce an "o"; long "ê" is given as<br>
>> "ay" [= "ê" in<br>
>> spoken<br>
>>>> Arabic]), which would give *Taúlêtula.<br>
>>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Hi,<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> I don't think so, because the Goths in Spain<br>
>>><br>
>> didn't speak Gothic, but<br>
>>> Latin or some vulgar Latin with a few<br>
>>><br>
>> Germanic/Gothic remnants. The<br>
>><br>
>>> Tabula gentes of about 550AD suggests so, and<br>
>>><br>
>> there is no hint that<br>
>>> they had any difficulties communicating with the<br>
>> local population in<br>
>>> Romanic without interpretors.<wbr>There is also no<br>
>>><br>
>> indication that written<br>
>>> Gothic was used in Gaul or Spain. After all, the<br>
>>><br>
>> Goths in Gaul and<br>
>><br>
>>> Spain were a Roman federate army, which also<br>
>>><br>
>> included many Roman<br>
>>> provincials and Latin was no doubt the lingua<br>
>> franca of the various<br>
>>> western Gothic groups since the 5th century.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Cheers,<br>
>>> Dirk<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
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