<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<!-- Network content -->
<body style="background-color: #ffffff;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, OSCAR HERRERA <duke.co@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> <br>
> --- faltin2001 <d.faltin@..<wbr>.> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > it should stand as unclear dirk....when the goths<br>
> invaded spain it contends that they drove out other<br>
> enemys there which included the roman legions there<br>
> and others, etc....oscar<br>
<br>
Hi Oscar,<br>
<br>
can you be a bit more precise please. Which Roman legions were driven <br>
out of Spain by the Visigoths? The Visigoths were the Roman federate <br>
army. I.e. they were employed by Rome to drive out the Vandals, Alans <br>
and Sueves. When The Romans thought the the Visigoths were doing too <br>
good a job at it they ordered them back from Spain to settle in Gaul. <br>
The purpose here was to use them against the Bagaudae. After Euric, <br>
however, the Visigothic kingdom in Gaul went into decline and in 507 <br>
AD they were defeated by the Francs and the remnants of the Visigoths <br>
fled to Spain.<br>
<br>
So again, which Roman legions were driven out of Spain by the <br>
Visigoths? What we call the Visigoths, was a federate army, dressed, <br>
fed, equipped and commanded by Rome. I recommend Herwig Wolfram's <br>
standard work on the Goths for the basic tenants of Gothic history.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Dirk<br>
<br>
> > Hi Oscar,<br>
> > <br>
> > are the many question marks an expression of<br>
> > disbelief or a sign that <br>
> > you are unclear about the content of my comment?<br>
> > <br>
> > Just to clarify, there is really no doubt today that<br>
> > the Visigoths <br>
> > who settled in Spain after 507 didn't speak Gothic,<br>
> > but Latin or <br>
> > better a Latin military pidgin that included<br>
> > Germanic terms. The fact <br>
> > that all royal documents issued by Visigothic kings<br>
> > are in Latin <br>
> > shouldn't surprise. The same is true for Italy. Yet,<br>
> > even in private <br>
> > and Arian church documents there is no use and not<br>
> > even a reference <br>
> > to an other language, let alone Gothic. In Italy at<br>
> > least some <br>
> > private and clerical documents use Gothic, albeit in<br>
> > a static, archic <br>
> > and formulaic way that shows that the language was<br>
> > more or less dead <br>
> > already in daily use. <br>
> > <br>
> > Also, like in Italy, Visigothic kings never seem to<br>
> > have need for <br>
> > interpreters. They can speak freely communicated<br>
> > with the natives, <br>
> > which would at least require them to have been<br>
> > bilingual. Finally, <br>
> > the Frankish Tabula Gentes of 550 AD suggests<br>
> > directly that the <br>
> > Visigoths of Spain were Latin-speakers. <br>
> > <br>
> > I suppose the federate army under Wallia who entered<br>
> > Spain in the <br>
> > early 5th century would have been mostly<br>
> > Gothic/Germanic speaking. <br>
> > Yet, in the subsequent 3 or 4 generations in Gaul<br>
> > Gothic was no doubt <br>
> > abandoned in favour of Latin. When the Gothic<br>
> > kingdom was destroyed <br>
> > by the Franks in 507, the remaining refugees who<br>
> > fled to Spain would <br>
> > have ben Latin/Romanic speakers. And again, the<br>
> > documentary evidence <br>
> > of the subsequent decades allows for no other<br>
> > conclusion.<br>
> > <br>
> > Cheers,<br>
> > Dirk<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, OSCAR HERRERA<br>
> > <duke.co@> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > ????????????<br>
> > > <br>
> > > faltin2001 <d.faltin@> wrote: --- In<br>
> > gothic-<br>
> > <a href="mailto:l%40yahoogroups.com">l@yahoogroups.<wbr>com</a>, "Abdoer-Ragmaan Lombard" <br>
> > > <manielombard@<wbr>> wrote:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Perhaps I've used an unsuitable font, so here a<br>
> > repost:<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Could Tulaytula, the Arabic form of Toledo, have<br>
> > <br>
> > > > been derived from *Tôlêtula", a Gothic<br>
> > hypocorism of *Tôlêtô < <br>
> > Latin <br>
> > > > Tôlêtum? Perhaps *Taúlêtô should be regarded as<br>
> > the Gothic etymon <br>
> > > > (long unstressed "ô" having merged in Vulgar<br>
> > Latin with <br>
> > short /o/, <br>
> > > and <br>
> > > > seeing that Arabic uses a short "u" preceded by<br>
> > an emphatic t, in <br>
> > > > order to reproduce an "o"; long "ê" is given as<br>
> > "ay" [= "ê" in <br>
> > spoken <br>
> > > > Arabic]), which would give *Taúlêtula.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Hi,<br>
> > > <br>
> > > I don't think so, because the Goths in Spain<br>
> > didn't speak Gothic, <br>
> > but <br>
> > > Latin or some vulgar Latin with a few<br>
> > Germanic/Gothic remnants. The <br>
> > > Tabula gentes of about 550AD suggests so, and<br>
> > there is no hint that <br>
> > > they had any difficulties communicating with the<br>
> > local population <br>
> > in <br>
> > > Romanic without interpretors.<wbr>There is also no<br>
> > indication that <br>
> > written <br>
> > > Gothic was used in Gaul or Spain. After all, the<br>
> > Goths in Gaul and <br>
> > > Spain were a Roman federate army, which also<br>
> > included many Roman <br>
> > > provincials and Latin was no doubt the lingua<br>
> > franca of the various <br>
> > > western Gothic groups since the 5th century. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > Cheers,<br>
> > > Dirk<br>
> > > <br>
> > > ><br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been<br>
> > removed]<br>
> > ><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> ><br>
><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span>
<!-- Start the section with Message In topic -->
<div id="ygrp-actbar">
<span class="left">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/9721;_ylc=X3oDMTM0bDV1OW9hBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzk3NTkEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMTgzNTcxMzkzBHRwY0lkAzk3MjE-">
Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">0</span>)
</span>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwYjNiamkxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzk3NTkEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMTgzNTcxMzkz?act=reply&messageNum=9759">
<span class="bld">
Reply </span> (via web post)
</a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOGQyZ2piBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE4MzU3MTM5Mw--" class="bld">
Start a new topic </a>
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vitnav">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZzdnbXUxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4MzU3MTM5Mw--">Messages</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlaDg5ZXU3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTE4MzU3MTM5Mw--">Members</a>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- Do not have place to put it yet -->
<div id="ygrp-grft">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<!-- yahoo logo -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-ft">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcGgxaTViBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMTgzNTcxMzkz">
<img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmOGRrdHIyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzExODM1NzEzOTM-">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJkajNwaGZ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMTgzNTcxMzkz">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=">
Unsubscribe </a>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:140px;float: left; clear: none; margin-left: 5px; background:white; margin-bottom:25px ;position:absolute; top:0; right: 0;">
<!-- Network content -->
<!-- Start vitality -->
<div id="ygrp-vital">
<div id="vithd">Recent Activity</div>
<ul style="list-style-type:none; padding: 0; margin: 2px 0;">
<li style="clear: both;">
<div class="ct" style="float: right;"><span style="display:none"> </span>1</div>
<div class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmM2cxN2hsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzExODM1NzEzOTM-">New Members</a></div>
</li>
</ul>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXMybHVoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTE4MzU3MTM5Mw--">
Visit Your Group </a>
</div>
<div id="hd">SPONSORED LINKS</div>
<div id="ov">
<ul>
<li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjaDhhM2piBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMTAyMDU5OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3MzkyMDYEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExODM1NzEzOTM-?t=ms&k=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w1=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w2=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&c=2&s=75&g=2&.sig=HcA2Gka9ver96eXrT3Jqlg">Nh lake region real estate</a></li>
<li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjNm1xMmhsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMTAyMDU5OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3MzkyMDYEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExODM1NzEzOTM-?t=ms&k=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&w1=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w2=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&c=2&s=75&g=2&.sig=VzceW82Yh9iNe-OnKKJhSA">New hampshire lake region real estate</a></li>
</ul>
</div>
<!-- Network content -->
<div id="nc">
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Moderator Central</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12j2m5bni/M=493064.10729651.11333342.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1183578593/A=4699084/R=0/SIG=115gt68pf/*http://moderators.groups.yahoo.com/">Get answers to</a></p>
<p>your questions about</p>
<p>running Y! Groups.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<html><head></head><body><div id="hd1">Yoga Groups</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jaeqcgt/M=493064.10771301.11554070.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1183578593/A=4699086/R=0/SIG=11pv8cj55/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yogazone/index.html">Exchange insights</a></p>
<p>with members of</p>
<p>the yoga community.</p>
</body></html> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Yahoo! Groups HD</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jdbsn97/M=493064.10972170.11554072.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1183578593/A=4706130/R=0/SIG=11f8fj6tf/*http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/samsunghd/">The official Samsung</a></p>
<p>Y! Group for HDTVs</p>
<p>and devices.</p> </div>
</div>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=9759/stime=1183571393/nc1=4699084/nc2=4699086/nc3=4706130" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
#ygrp-text{
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p{
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-tpmsgs{
font-family: Arial;
clear: both;
}
#ygrp-vitnav{
padding-top: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-vitnav a{
padding: 0 1px;
}
#ygrp-actbar{
clear: both;
margin: 25px 0;
white-space:nowrap;
color: #666;
text-align: right;
}
#ygrp-actbar .left{
float: left;
white-space:nowrap;
}
.bld{font-weight:bold;}
#ygrp-grft{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
padding: 15px 0;
}
#ygrp-ft{
font-family: verdana;
font-size: 77%;
border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a {
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc {
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o {font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq {margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->