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<p>Hi,<br>
Another view is presented by Peter Brown in "The World of late <br>
antiquity AD 150-750"<br>
<br>
Dirk will probably not like it as it does not fit his picure.<br>
<br>
Tore<br>
<br>
The ideology of the late fourth-century popes, and the cult of St <br>
Peter in western Europe, owe much to conscious rivalry with pagan <br>
exponents of the myth of Rome. Symmachus, paradoxically, was an <br>
unwitting architect of the medieval papacy.<br>
<br>
But even the most enthusiastic Christian patriot had to admit that <br>
the cult of the Rome of St Peter was, in part, an attempt to lay a <br>
ghost. The last pagans of Rome reminded Christians, at the very last <br>
moment, of the unregenerate, pagan past of the empire. They charged <br>
the myth of Roma aeterna with sinister associations. Throughout the <br>
Middle Ages, just beneath the surface of the Holy City of St Peter, <br>
there always lurked, as an indelible stain on the Christian <br>
imagination, the idea that Rome had been 'the Devil's City'. In <br>
Constantinople, the Roman empire was accepted without question as a <br>
Christian empire. All that the bishops of the medieval West could do, <br>
by contrast, was to conjure up the pale clerical shade of a 'holy' <br>
Roman empire.<br>
<br>
The society of the western provinces of the Roman empire was <br>
fragmented. In the late fourth century, boundaries had hardened, and <br>
a heightened sense of identity had led to harsher intolerance of the <br>
outsider. Senators who had participated in an impressive revival of <br>
high standards of Latin literature were little inclined to tolerate a <br>
'barbarian'. Bishops who could boast Ambrose, Jerome and Augustine as <br>
colleagues were in no mood, either, to tolerate those outside their <br>
Catholic Church. As a result, the barbarian tribes entered a society <br>
that was not strong enough to hold them at bay, but not flexible <br>
enough to 'lead their conquerors captive' by absorbing them into <br>
Roman life.<br>
<br>
This is the significance of the so-called 'barbarian invasions' of <br>
the early fifth century. These invasions were not perpetual, <br>
destructive raids; still less were they organized campaigns of <br>
conquest. Rather. they were a 'gold rush' of immigrants from the <br>
underdeveloped countries of the north into the rich lands of the <br>
Mediterranean.<br>
<br>
The barbarians were vulnerable. Their numbers and military capacity <br>
might win the battles: but they were in no position to win the peace. <br>
The Visigoths crossed the frontier at the Danube in 376 and turned <br>
their attention to Italy in 402, under their king Alaric. The Vandals <br>
entered Gaul and Spain in 406-09. The Burgundians settled down in the <br>
Middle Rhône Valley after 430. These successes were impressive and <br>
totally unexpected. Yet the conquering tribes were divided against <br>
each other and within themselves. Each had produced a warrior- <br>
aristocracy, far removed from the tastes and ambitions of their own <br>
rank and file. These warrior-aristocraci<wbr>es were quite prepared to <br>
leave their 'underdeveloped' fellow tribesmen behind, and to become <br>
absorbed into the prestige and luxury of Roman society. Theodoric, <br>
king of the Ostrogoths (493-526), was later in the habit of saying: <br>
'An able Goth wants to be like a Roman; only a poor Roman would want <br>
to be like a Goth.'<br>
<br>
In those areas of the Balkans controlled by the court of <br>
Constantinople, the lessons which the Roman military experts had <br>
learnt in the fourth century were applied successfully. A judicious <br>
combination of force, adaptability and hard cash neutralized the <br>
effects of the Visigothic immigration. The Visigothic warrior- <br>
aristocracy was 'integrated' by being offered posts in the High <br>
Command, or set to tasks that served the purposes of east Roman <br>
diplomacy. When Alaric was deflected from the Balkans to the West, <br>
however, he faced a society with neither strength nor skill. The <br>
senators had failed to pay their taxes or to provide recruits for the <br>
Roman army; yet, when they were asked, in 408, to pay for a diplomacy <br>
based on subsidies to Alaric, that might have covered their military <br>
weakness, the Senate rejected the proposal as smacking of <br>
'appeasement' of the despised barbarian: 'This is a slave's contract,<br>
not a subsidy.' Noble words: but two years later these patriots would <br>
have to pay three times as much as they had been asked to contribute, <br>
in order to ransom their own city from the Visigothic king. A <br>
strident chauvinism and a refusal to negotiate with the barbarians <br>
led to the Sack of Rome by Alaric in 410. It was not an auspicious <br>
beginning to the coming century of Roman-barbarian relations.<br>
<br>
So much for the Roman senators. As for the Catholic Church, its <br>
bishops were the spokesmen of the prejudices of the average <br>
Mediterranean townsman. Townsmen dreaded the barbarians: but they <br>
also knew and disliked soldiers. Their Christianity was not so much <br>
pacifist, as resolutely civilian. Sulpicius Severus went to great <br>
lengths to disguise the fact that his hero, St Martin of Tours, had <br>
ever been a Roman officer: only in the far more military society of <br>
the Middle Ages did artists gladly portray him as a knight. There was <br>
no room for the soldier-saint in the fourth-century Latin <br>
congregations, and, one may suspect, they cherished little enthusiasm <br>
for the Roman army. As for the barbarian, he was the successor of the <br>
Roman soldier: he was branded as a man of war, tainted with <br>
'ferocity of soul', in the midst of the peace-loving 'Sheep of the <br>
Lord'. He was also a heretic, for the Danubian tribes had adopted the <br>
strong Arian Christianity of that region.<br>
<br>
The barbarian settlers in the West found themselves both powerful and <br>
unabsorbable. They were encapsulated by a wall of dumb hatred. They <br>
could not have been 'detribalized' even if they had wanted to be, <br>
because as 'barbarians' and heretics they were marked men. The <br>
intolerance that greeted the barbarian immigration, therefore, led <br>
directly to the formation of the barbarian kingdoms. To be tacitly <br>
disliked by 98 per cent of one's fellow men is no mean stimulus to <br>
preserving one's identity as a ruling class. The Vandals in Africa <br>
from 428 to 533, the Ostrogoths in Italy from 496 to 554, the <br>
Visigoths in<br>
Toulouse from 418 and later in Spain, up to their conversion to <br>
Catholicism in 589, ruled effectively as heretical kingdoms precisely <br>
because they were well hated. They had to remain a tight-knit warrior <br>
caste, held at arm's length by their subjects. Not surprisingly, the <br>
word for 'executioner' is the only direct legacy of two and a half <br>
centuries of Visigothic rule to the language of Spain.<br>
<br>
The Franks were the exception that proved the rule. They were <br>
latecomers: Frankish war-bands rose to prominence only in the late <br>
fifth century, long after the establishment of the other Germanic <br>
tribes. They did not come as conquerors: they had infiltrated in <br>
small numbers, as mercenaries. Above all, they kept clear of the <br>
highly articulate populations round the Mediterranean. Northern Gaul <br>
remained the centre of gravity of the Frankish state. Southern <br>
bishops and senators found it easier to accept such comparatively <br>
insignificant strangers. As a result, the Franks felt free to become <br>
Catholics. At the<br>
Merovingian court of the sixth century, Roman and Frank butchered and <br>
married each other without discrimination; and Gallo-Roman bishops, <br>
well aware of the continued existence of strong Arian states to their <br>
south (the Visigoths in Spain held Narbonne, and the Ostrogoths of <br>
Italy expanded into Provence), hailed the unsavoury warlord of the <br>
Franks, Clovis (481-511), as 'a new Constantine'<wbr>. The very success of <br>
the distant Franks, indeed, is an indication of how little tolerance <br>
the Roman population of the Mediterranean were prepared to extend to <br>
the barbarian states on their own doorstep.<br>
<br>
This state of affairs is usually treated as inevitable by historians <br>
of western Europe in the fifth and sixth centuries. But it is not the <br>
only way in which a great empire can treat its barbarian conquerors. <br>
Northern China, for instance, was more thoroughly occupied by the <br>
barbarians of Mongolia than ever the western provinces of the Roman <br>
empire were by the Germanic tribes. Yet in China the barbarians 'went <br>
native' within a few generations, and continued the Chinese imperial <br>
tradition without a break, from dynasty to dynasty. The Visigothic, <br>
the Ostrogothic and the Vandal kingdoms of western Europe were never <br>
absorbed in this way: they survived as foreign bodies, perched <br>
insecurely on top of populations who ignored them and set about the <br>
more congenial business of looking after themselves.<br>
<br>
The barbarian invasions did not destroy west Roman society, but they <br>
drastically altered the scale of life in the western provinces. The <br>
imperial government, now settled in Ravenna, lost so much land and <br>
taxes that it remained bankrupt up to the time of its extinction in <br>
476. The senators lost the income of their scattered estates. They <br>
were able to make good some of their losses by rack-renting and <br>
chicanery in the areas where their power was strongest. The great <br>
landowners of Italy and Gaul, whose power rested so heavily on the <br>
peasantry, were a threatened rump of the affluent absentee-landlords <br>
of the previous century. Communications suffered. In the late fourth <br>
century, senatorial ladies from northern Spain travelled freely all over<br>
the eastern empire; in the fifth century, a bishop writing in Asturia <br>
hardly knew what happened outside his own province. In western <br>
Europe, the fifth century was a time of narrowing horizons, of the <br>
strengthening of local roots, and the consolidating of old loyalties.<br>
<br>
Immediately after the Sack of Rome the Catholic Church asserted its <br>
unity: schism was forcibly suppressed in Africa after 411; in 417 the <br>
Pelagian heresy was chased out of Rome. Men felt they could no longer <br>
afford the vigorous religious strife of a more secure age. The last <br>
pagans, therefore, rallied to the Church. Their culture and <br>
patriotism now contributed to hardening the boundaries of <br>
Catholicism: in the mosaics placed in S. Maria Maggiore in 431, for <br>
instance, the Temple in the background of the scene of Christ's <br>
Presentation at the Temple is the old Templum Urbis. Leo I (440-61), <br>
the first pope to<br>
come from the old-fashioned countryside of Rome, praised Rome as the <br>
see of St Peter in language that echoes exactly the punctilious <br>
devotion of Symmachus to the Capitoline gods. In a world increasingly <br>
conscious of the presence of the non-Roman, Catholicism had become <br>
the single 'Roman' religion.<br>
<br>
With this new religious solidarity went a strengthening of localties. <br>
This can be seen most clearly in Gaul. The provincial aristocracy of <br>
Gaul had always been both loyal to its homeland and successful as <br>
suitors at court. The tradition begun at Trier in the fourth century <br>
merely continued with gusto in the more outlandish barbarian courts <br>
of the fifth. Sidonius Apollinaris (c. 431-89) included among his <br>
skills the gentle art of gaining a petition by tactfully losing at <br>
back-gammon whenever he played against the Visigothic king Theodoric <br>
at Toulouse.<br>
<br>
The newly established barbarian kingdoms provided ample scope for the <br>
gifts of the courtier. Despite their prejudices, the local senators <br>
quickly realized that to have a strong man with an effective military <br>
force on one's doorstep has its advantages. The Romans exploited the <br>
divisive effects of new wealth among the barbarian nobility. They <br>
tended to back the kings against their unruly followers by <br>
encouraging them to establish strong dynasties on the imperial model. <br>
A typical example of the survival of the scholar-bureaucrat at a <br>
barbarian court is Cassiodorus (c. 490-c. 583), who was a minister of <br>
Theodoric the Ostrogoth and his successors in Italy. Cassiodorus <br>
framed the royal edicts in traditional style; he skilfully presented <br>
Theodoric and his<br>
family as 'philosopher kings' (for he could hardly have called them <br>
legitimate Roman rulers); and he even wrote a History of the Goths <br>
that presented the tribe in general, and the family of Theodoric in <br>
particular, as co-operative participants in the history of the <br>
Mediterranean, from the time of Alexander the Great onwards.<br>
<br>
More bluntly, the Romans came to recognize that the devil you know is <br>
better than the devil you do not. In Aquitaine, the Visigothic <br>
presence sheltered the villas of Sidonius and his friends from tribes <br>
such as the Saxons who were known to have terrorized Britain. In 451, <br>
it was the local senators who persuaded the Visigoths to join the <br>
Roman army in halting the avalanche of Attila's Huns. It was the <br>
presence of the barbarian garrisons in Gaul which ensured that, while <br>
in Britain not a single Roman estate-name survived the Saxon <br>
invasion, the villages of the Garonne and the Auvergne bear to this<br>
day the names of the families that owned them in the fifth century.<br>
<br>
The politics of Roman courtiers at the new barbarian courts were <br>
local politics. The idea of a united western empire was increasingly <br>
ignored by men who genuinely loved the smaller world of their <br>
province. In the letters of Sidonius Apollinaris, we see the rooted <br>
passions of the gentleman-farmer emerging behind the mask of the <br>
senator's otium. In the letters of Symmachus, we see only a style of <br>
life: in those of Sidonius, we move through a distinct landscape - <br>
his beloved Clermont: 'Where pastures crown the hill-tops and vine- <br>
yards clothe the slopes, where villas rise on the lowlands and <br>
castles on the rocks, forests here and clearings there, headlands <br>
washed by rivers . .<br>
<br>
5 jul 2007 kl. 02.19 skrev Ingemar Nordgren:<br>
<br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@..<wbr>.> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
><br>
> > Hi Ingemar,<br>
> ><br>
> > I'm afraid the Goths that you tell about most of the time are indeed<br>
> > fantasy.<br>
><br>
> I see. Thanks for telling me.<br>
><br>
> > Different social groups require different laws. The native<br>
> provincial Iberians largely submitted to the laws set by the secular<br>
> Roman > authorities. The Catholic clerics submitted to church law and<br>
> the military was subject to the "lex Romana Visigothorum"<wbr>, i.e. the<br>
> Roman law for the visigothic realm.<br>
><br>
> And to whom submitted the Arian priests then? The Visigothic warriors<br>
> did not submit to a Roman law but a Gothic one. Note e.g. that<br>
> Reccared claimed the same divine legislation as the emperor.<br>
><br>
> Nor was the Gothic armies Roman armies even if the Romans had to grant<br>
> Alaric, and later Theoderic, the title of Magister Militum to prevent<br>
> them from looting the Balkan area. They sent them westward but did<br>
> not in fact control them. The Gothic kingdoms were just Gothic but<br>
> still they recognised the emperor, like kings do, which however<br>
> doesn't make them Roman. Funny indeed that the emperor sent a Roman<br>
> army to lay siege on Rome in 410. They respected the civil rights of<br>
> the former Roman citizens just through having different sets of law.<br>
> Teoderic, beside different administration, even forbade intermarriage<br>
> to isolate the Goths as an own unit to support the Gothic ethnicity.<br>
> Euric and Leovigild as another example both were very intent on having<br>
> a strongly king controlled Arian church even if this later was undone<br>
> by Reccared et consortes.<br>
><br>
> I can admit that Gothic gradually declined as used language and<br>
> specially so after Reccared but to say it totally disappeared is not<br>
> correct.Nor is it for Italy. You can't ,besides, not use preserved<br>
> documents as a proof since most documents are destroyed, often<br>
> overwritten with new texts, and most of the Gothic population- and I<br>
> assume many of the former Roman- were illiterate and analfabets. You<br>
> must go for place names et.c. to find out the remnants.<br>
><br>
> >Lets say you (and many others) believe in an old and antiquated image<br>
> >of the Visigoths, which simply is no longer acceptable in the light<br>
> >of the evidence. You should now that much of what we know is<br>
> >perception and interpretion. Look, Oscar wasn't even aware that the<br>
> >Visigoths were the Roman federate army and that they didn't drive<br>
> >out any Roman legions from Spain. Your knowledge would be better<br>
> >used to inform and explain such things.<br>
><br>
> As I wrote they were not really the Roman federate army but rather an<br>
> allied army under formal command of a 'Magister Militum' who was a<br>
> real king/reiks and who didn't care a bit about the interpretation by<br>
> the emperor in that respect. They were since long used to help the<br>
> Romans as auxilliary forces before they crossed the limes and because<br>
> of hunger and maltreatment started raiding Eastroman territory. A<br>
> hundred years later the same problem occured with the Ostrogoths and<br>
> was solved in the same way.<br>
><br>
> The Vesi-Tervingi were renamed Visigoths in the time of Alaric - that<br>
> is correct, but if it was Jordanes or Cassiodorus which did that is<br>
> another question since Alaric set out tovards Italy via Balkan<br>
> already in the early 400's. They,however, after were known under that<br>
> name and still are. In the same way Greutungi and the other tribes<br>
> became the Ostrogoths. I know you claim the Goths are not related to<br>
> Gudones and hence there are no Goths but just a mixture of Germanics,<br>
> Sarmatians et c. I agree there is hard to find bloodlines of a<br>
> homogenous Gothic people after different etnogenesi but this does not<br>
> mean you can rule out the Goths in the way you do.Archaeology is quite<br>
> clear in that respect. They were divided in tribes and people all the<br>
> way from the beginning and Gudones/Goths is just a collective name but<br>
> it is as well an important ethnic tradition. Into this tradition later<br>
> also new folks were incorporated and became accepted Goths. The Goths<br>
> were in time influenced by the Roman civilisation to a certain degree<br>
> but it is not until after the conversion to Catholicism that they<br>
> start loosing their Gothic ethnicity and language as a united people.<br>
> This occured accordingly after 568 and gradually up to 711. I am<br>
> however fairly convinced that Gothic was spoken much later but not<br>
> used as a written official language. Crimea is not the only place<br>
> where Gothic speakers have been reported but it is the only documented<br>
> place.<br>
><br>
> lost their Germanic language<br>
> > during the 5th century, after having lived among Romans for some <br>
> 5 or<br>
> > more generations. The Ostrogoths may have stuck with Gothic a little<br>
> > longer. Theoderic never referes to Gothic, but he uses the term "our<br>
> > language". Yet, this "our language" had almost certainly very <br>
> little in<br>
> > common with the Gothic of the Wulfila bible. Instead, it was <br>
> probably a<br>
> > military pidgin with many Germanic, Latin and some Greek words.<br>
><br>
> Of course a language developes in time like our modern ones. There is<br>
> accordingly no sense in saying they didn't use Gothic.<br>
><br>
> Thank you for your enlightment!<br>
><br>
> Die besten Grüße!<br>
> Ingemar<br>
><br>
><br>
> <br>
<br>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
<br>
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<li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjc25rajJuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMTAyMDU5OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3MzkyMDYEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExODM2MzI3MDA-?t=ms&k=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&w1=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w2=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&c=2&s=75&g=2&.sig=VzceW82Yh9iNe-OnKKJhSA">New hampshire lake region real estate</a></li>
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