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<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "faltin2001" <d.faltin@..<wbr>.> wrote:<br>
><br>
<br>
> Hi Ingemar,<br>
> <br>
> I'm afraid the Goths that you tell about most of the time are indeed <br>
> fantasy.<br>
<br>
I see. Thanks for telling me.<br>
<br>
> Different social groups require different laws. The native<br>
provincial Iberians largely submitted to the laws set by the secular<br>
Roman > authorities. The Catholic clerics submitted to church law and<br>
the military was subject to the "lex Romana Visigothorum"<wbr>, i.e. the<br>
Roman law for the visigothic realm.<br>
<br>
And to whom submitted the Arian priests then? The Visigothic warriors<br>
did not submit to a Roman law but a Gothic one. Note e.g. that<br>
Reccared claimed the same divine legislation as the emperor.<br>
<br>
Nor was the Gothic armies Roman armies even if the Romans had to grant<br>
Alaric, and later Theoderic, the title of Magister Militum to prevent<br>
them from looting the Balkan area. They sent them westward but did<br>
not in fact control them. The Gothic kingdoms were just Gothic but<br>
still they recognised the emperor, like kings do, which however<br>
doesn't make them Roman. Funny indeed that the emperor sent a Roman<br>
army to lay siege on Rome in 410. They respected the civil rights of<br>
the former Roman citizens just through having different sets of law.<br>
Teoderic, beside different administration, even forbade intermarriage<br>
to isolate the Goths as an own unit to support the Gothic ethnicity.<br>
Euric and Leovigild as another example both were very intent on having<br>
a strongly king controlled Arian church even if this later was undone<br>
by Reccared et consortes.<br>
<br>
I can admit that Gothic gradually declined as used language and<br>
specially so after Reccared but to say it totally disappeared is not<br>
correct.Nor is it for Italy. You can't ,besides, not use preserved<br>
documents as a proof since most documents are destroyed, often<br>
overwritten with new texts, and most of the Gothic population- and I<br>
assume many of the former Roman- were illiterate and analfabets. You<br>
must go for place names et.c. to find out the remnants.<br>
<br>
>Lets say you (and many others) believe in an old and antiquated image<br>
>of the Visigoths, which simply is no longer acceptable in the light<br>
>of the evidence. You should now that much of what we know is<br>
>perception and interpretion. Look, Oscar wasn't even aware that the<br>
>Visigoths were the Roman federate army and that they didn't drive<br>
>out any Roman legions from Spain. Your knowledge would be better<br>
>used to inform and explain such things.<br>
<br>
As I wrote they were not really the Roman federate army but rather an<br>
allied army under formal command of a 'Magister Militum' who was a<br>
real king/reiks and who didn't care a bit about the interpretation by<br>
the emperor in that respect. They were since long used to help the<br>
Romans as auxilliary forces before they crossed the limes and because<br>
of hunger and maltreatment started raiding Eastroman territory. A<br>
hundred years later the same problem occured with the Ostrogoths and<br>
was solved in the same way.<br>
<br>
The Vesi-Tervingi were renamed Visigoths in the time of Alaric - that<br>
is correct, but if it was Jordanes or Cassiodorus which did that is<br>
another question since Alaric set out tovards Italy via Balkan<br>
already in the early 400's. They,however, after were known under that<br>
name and still are. In the same way Greutungi and the other tribes<br>
became the Ostrogoths. I know you claim the Goths are not related to<br>
Gudones and hence there are no Goths but just a mixture of Germanics,<br>
Sarmatians et c. I agree there is hard to find bloodlines of a<br>
homogenous Gothic people after different etnogenesi but this does not<br>
mean you can rule out the Goths in the way you do.Archaeology is quite<br>
clear in that respect. They were divided in tribes and people all the<br>
way from the beginning and Gudones/Goths is just a collective name but<br>
it is as well an important ethnic tradition. Into this tradition later<br>
also new folks were incorporated and became accepted Goths. The Goths<br>
were in time influenced by the Roman civilisation to a certain degree<br>
but it is not until after the conversion to Catholicism that they<br>
start loosing their Gothic ethnicity and language as a united people.<br>
This occured accordingly after 568 and gradually up to 711. I am<br>
however fairly convinced that Gothic was spoken much later but not<br>
used as a written official language. Crimea is not the only place<br>
where Gothic speakers have been reported but it is the only documented<br>
place.<br>
<br>
lost their Germanic language <br>
> during the 5th century, after having lived among Romans for some 5 or <br>
> more generations. The Ostrogoths may have stuck with Gothic a little <br>
> longer. Theoderic never referes to Gothic, but he uses the term "our <br>
> language". Yet, this "our language" had almost certainly very little in <br>
> common with the Gothic of the Wulfila bible. Instead, it was probably a <br>
> military pidgin with many Germanic, Latin and some Greek words.<br>
<br>
Of course a language developes in time like our modern ones. There is<br>
accordingly no sense in saying they didn't use Gothic.<br>
<br>
Thank you for your enlightment!<br>
<br>
Die besten Grüße!<br>
Ingemar<br>
<br>
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