<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<!-- Network content -->
<body style="background-color: #ffffff;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" <600cell@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Interesting dilemma... It might be tough to find an example of the<br>
> word order shifted so radically for the sake of clarity; the really<br>
> big divergences usually turn out to have a model in the Vetus <br>
Latina,<br>
> and Friedrichsen makes a good case for these being due to later<br>
> revisions to Wulfila's Greek-based text. And awkward constructions<br>
> and ambiguities do sometimes occur for the sake of sticking <br>
rigidly to<br>
> Greek word order. In favour of the subjunctive, Streitberg cites <br>
some<br>
> examples of subjunctive for Greek infinitive, Elementarbuch § 315,<br>
> note 1, e.g. qaž ei at lagidedeina : EIPEN PARAQEINAI (Mk 8:7). <br>
But<br>
> where 'žugkjan' is reflexive "to think oneself", there are <br>
examples of<br>
> both kinds:<br>
> <br>
> žaim žugkjandam wisan hva<br>
> "those who think themselves to be something"<br>
> Gal 2:6<br>
> <br>
> žugkeiž im auk ei in filuwaurdein seinai andhausjaindau<br>
> DOKOUSIN GAR hOTI EN THi POLULOGIAi AUTWN EISAKOUSQHSONTAI<br>
> "for they think that in their much-speaking they will be heard"<br>
> Mt 6:7<br>
> <br>
> When the infinitive is used though, there is an ambiguity:<br>
> <br>
> jah žatei žugkeiž haban<br>
> KAI hO DOKEI ECEIN<br>
> "even what he seems to have"<br>
> L 8:18<br>
> <br>
> galaubjan Iohanne hausjan žuhtedun<br>
> "they seemed to believe, to hear, John"<br>
> Sk 6:1<br>
> <br>
> Where the infinitive is used, wouldn't Gothic (like Latin) use<br>
> accusative for the subject of the infinitive, if expressed? <br>
Cf. 'man<br>
> auk ni waihtai mik minnizo gataujan' (II Cor 11:5). What I'm <br>
getting<br>
> at is: is there a choice to make here between either: žuhta <br>
mis ... ei<br>
> +subj., or alternatively: žuhta (mik silban) +inf.?<br>
<br>
1. ...ik žuhta mis silbin ... ei skuldedjau managa andaneižona <br>
gataujan<br>
<br>
2. ...ik žuhta mik silban ... skulan managa andaneižona gataujan<br>
<br>
Obviously that makes sense. I'd better go with either instead of <br>
copying the Greek word order. But how about Wulfila? I'm not very <br>
educated in classical Greek, unfortunately. Is the construction <br>
natural to the koine language or is it a biblical deviation? I mean <br>
if Wulfila thought the Vorlage syntax here to be unclear he might <br>
have been more apt to change it also in his translation.<br>
<br>
> Something else that I wonder about is whether 'wižro' would be <br>
used as<br>
> a complement of 'andaneižo'. As far as I can see, all the <br>
examples of<br>
> 'andaneižo' and 'andaneižs' (II Cor 2:7, Col 2:14, I Thess 2:15)<br>
> simply take a dative complement with no preposition. That's not to<br>
> say that 'wižro' is wrong here -- just something to think about.<br>
<br>
Doesn't wižra belong rather to gataujan than to andaneižo here? <br>
Rather "to do [many contrary things] against the name of Jesus of <br>
Nazareth"? Vulgate - aduersus nomen ... [multa contraria] agere and <br>
LXX - PROS TO ONOMA ... [POLLA ENANTIA] PRAXAI.<br>
<br>
> LN<br>
<br>
Ualarauans<br>
<br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>...> <br>
wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Hi,<br>
> ><br>
> > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "gutdwala" <gutdwala@> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > It seems fine to me, but a little awkward. I understood the <br>
meaning<br>
> > of<br>
> > > the sentence though. But if nothing like that is attested, I <br>
would<br>
> > > probably go with 'ei skuldedjau managa andaneižona gataujan', <br>
it just<br>
> > > seems a little more clear.<br>
> ><br>
> > Syntactic calques from Greek seem indeed awkward sometimes. The<br>
> > infinitive is used both in Septuaginta (DEIN) and Vulgate <br>
(debere).<br>
> > I know there are cases where Greek infinitives are rendered with<br>
> > ei + finite verb (subjunctive) though I can't recall examples <br>
right<br>
> > now. But I fear that if using the paraphrase like that the <br>
connection<br>
> > between the object (wižra namo Iesuis žis Nazoraiaus) and the<br>
> > predicate (managa andaneižona gataujan) will be lost or at least<br>
> > obscured. To change it into 'ei skuldedjau wižra namo Iesuis žis<br>
> > Nazoraiaus managa andaneižona gataujan' would mean to digress <br>
too far<br>
> > from the original. A nice excuse would be a couple of attested<br>
> > examples where Wulfila acts this way.<br>
> ><br>
> > > Does this mean that we're still working on filling in non-<br>
extant<br>
> > > portions of the translation? It's a little out there, but I've <br>
got a<br>
> > > few chapters of Enoch thrown together. I remember seeing some<br>
> > > reconstructed bits on some sites a few years ago, maybe Matthew<br>
> > > Carver's? Are those all in the files section or is that newer <br>
stuff?<br>
> ><br>
> > Well, I just reconstruct separate verses which are needed for my<br>
> > research. I haven't seen this particular fragment anywhere else,<br>
> > but I haven't seen a lot of things after all. Generally, when <br>
doing an<br>
> > orderly reconstruction I can't get rid of the feeling that <br>
someone<br>
> > somewhere has already done this job. The Gothic Bible has been <br>
studied<br>
> > so long and so thoroughly that all the gaps must have been <br>
filled in<br>
> > many years ago. There are probably several full versions of the <br>
Bible<br>
> > by different authors.<br>
> ><br>
> > Ualarauans<br>
> ><br>
> > > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>> <br>
wrote:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Acts 26:9<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > King James': "I verily thought with myself, that I ought to <br>
do many<br>
> > > > things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth"<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Greek (LXX): EGW MEN OUN EDOXA EMAUTWi PROS TO ONOMA IHSOU <br>
TOU<br>
> > > > NAZWRAIOU DEIN POLLA ENANTIA PRAXAI<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Latin (Jerome): et ego quidem existimaueram me aduersus <br>
nomen Iesu<br>
> > > > Nazareni debere multa contraria agere<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Gothic (myself): žanuh žan ik žuhta mis silbin wižra namo <br>
Iesuis<br>
> > žis<br>
> > > > Nazoraiaus skulan managa andaneižona gataujan.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > I couldn't find anywhere infinitive skulan being used like <br>
this, so<br>
> > > > other variants are:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > ei skuldedjau managa andaneižona gataujan<br>
> > > > - ei skulda weseina managa andaneižona gataujan<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Your votes and suggestions?<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Ualarauans<br>
> ><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span>
<!-- Start the section with Message In topic -->
<div id="ygrp-actbar">
<span class="left">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/9790;_ylc=X3oDMTM0aGkyY2VzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzk3OTkEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMTg1MjQ3NjgzBHRwY0lkAzk3OTA-">
Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">0</span>)
</span>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwdWFmN243BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzk3OTkEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMTg1MjQ3Njgz?act=reply&messageNum=9799">
<span class="bld">
Reply </span> (via web post)
</a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlOTg1OWVhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NTI0NzY4Mw--" class="bld">
Start a new topic </a>
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vitnav">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJldjV1dGQwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4NTI0NzY4Mw--">Messages</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcGpuOWRiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NTI0NzY4Mw--">Members</a>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- Do not have place to put it yet -->
<div id="ygrp-grft">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<!-- yahoo logo -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-ft">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMTRhb2tlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMTg1MjQ3Njgz">
<img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNW1ubmltBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzExODUyNDc2ODM-">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMWIyZzVoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMTg1MjQ3Njgz">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=">
Unsubscribe </a>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:140px;float: left; clear: none; margin-left: 5px; background:white; margin-bottom:25px ;position:absolute; top:0; right: 0;">
<!-- Network content -->
<!-- Start vitality -->
<div id="ygrp-vital">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMXJtZXM0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTE4NTI0NzY4Mw--">
Visit Your Group </a>
</div>
<div id="hd">SPONSORED LINKS</div>
<div id="ov">
<ul>
<li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjcnFoMGUyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMTAyMDU5OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3MzkyMDYEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExODUyNDc2ODM-?t=ms&k=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w1=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w2=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&c=2&s=75&g=2&.sig=HcA2Gka9ver96eXrT3Jqlg">Nh lake region real estate</a></li>
<li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjb2Nra3F0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMTAyMDU5OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3MzkyMDYEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExODUyNDc2ODM-?t=ms&k=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&w1=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w2=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&c=2&s=75&g=2&.sig=VzceW82Yh9iNe-OnKKJhSA">New hampshire lake region real estate</a></li>
</ul>
</div>
<!-- Network content -->
<div id="nc">
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">New business?</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12j42nt8g/M=493064.10729656.11333347.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1185254883/A=3848640/R=0/SIG=131an6mds/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2002&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups1&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50">Get new customers.</a></p>
<p>List your web site</p>
<p>in Yahoo! Search.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Yahoo! Groups</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jrhvrq6/M=493064.10729651.11333342.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1185254883/A=4699082/R=0/SIG=115gt68pf/*http://moderators.groups.yahoo.com/">Moderator Central</a></p>
<p>get help and provide</p>
<p>feedback on Groups.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Real Food Group</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12ju0nltd/M=493064.11036139.11614791.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1185254883/A=4725792/R=0/SIG=1192rfjiu/*http://groups.yahoo.com/group/realfood/">Share recipes</a></p>
<p>and favorite meals</p>
<p>w/ Real Food lovers.</p> </div>
</div>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=9799/stime=1185247683/nc1=3848640/nc2=4699082/nc3=4725792" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
#ygrp-text{
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p{
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-tpmsgs{
font-family: Arial;
clear: both;
}
#ygrp-vitnav{
padding-top: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-vitnav a{
padding: 0 1px;
}
#ygrp-actbar{
clear: both;
margin: 25px 0;
white-space:nowrap;
color: #666;
text-align: right;
}
#ygrp-actbar .left{
float: left;
white-space:nowrap;
}
.bld{font-weight:bold;}
#ygrp-grft{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
padding: 15px 0;
}
#ygrp-ft{
font-family: verdana;
font-size: 77%;
border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a {
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc {
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o {font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq {margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->