<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<!-- Network content -->
<body style="background-color: #ffffff;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>On Jul 25, 2007, at 2:43 AM, faltin2001 wrote:<br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > I assume that the Gothic language was more often spoken in 5th-<br>
> > century Aquitaine than in 6th-century Spain. I would expect the<br>
> same<br>
> > density of Gothic place-names in Aquitaine as Swabisk place-names<br>
> in<br>
> > northwestern Spain, and a gradual drop-off of place-name-density<br>
> > between Aquitaine, Catalonia, and central Spain.<br>
> ><br>
> > But what is the known Gothic-place-<wbr>name-density in Aquitaine? If it<br>
> > is less than the Swabisk place-name-density in northwestern Spain,<br>
> > I'd expect that people have recognized the latter more easily than<br>
> > the former.<br>
> ><br>
><br>
> Hi,<br>
><br>
> if you read 5 papers on placename evidence you typically get 5<br>
> different opinions. There are really no "Swabisk" (I guess you mean<br>
> Suevic) place names in north-west Spain and as for so called Gothic<br>
> placenames in Aquitaine or Spain there is really very very little that<br>
> is convincing. Take Andalusia and Katalania for example. Some<br>
> linguists argued that these names were derived from names like<br>
> *Vandalusia (i.e. refering to the Vandals) and Gotolonia (refering to<br>
> the Goths). Both derivation are complete nonsense, but they show how<br>
> creative people were with wellknown regional names. Imagine the degree<br>
> of creativity applied to small villages and hamlets.<br>
><br>
> The Goths in Spain settled not in villages but in an around larger<br>
> towns and garrisons. Only a few high status individuals aquired rustic<br>
> villas and what is most importantly, the people we called Goths in<br>
> Spain didn't speak Gothic, at least not in the 6th and 7th centuries.<br>
> Finally, all this supposed placename evidence assumes that the<br>
> classical sources were reliable about the numbers of Goths in Spain.<br>
> Thus, in the older literature you can find numbers of around 100000 to<br>
> 200000 or even more. Archaeologists and historians like R. Collins now<br>
> think that the number was more likely to be around 30000. I.e. 30000<br>
> people that included perhaps 10000 fighting men. In the early 5th<br>
> century this was an unopposable force in Spain, which is why they<br>
> found easy employment by the Romans, who employed them first to clear<br>
> Spain of other Germanic marauders like the Vandals; who were then<br>
> ordered back to Gaul to deal with the Baugaudic threat in the Loire<br>
> region and who again employed against Sueves and other internal<br>
> opposition. In fact, as Collins sets out nicely this Gothic mercenary<br>
> army was indistinguishable from a proper Roman army. Both were<br>
> Christian, both included many ethnic Germans, but also many non-<br>
> Germanic people; both were Christians, both moved around with their<br>
> wives and children both were similarly dressed and equipped and<br>
> importantly both spoke a Latin-Germanic military pidgin that was<br>
> mutually comprehensible.<br>
><br>
> Yet, the official Roman armies had almost completely disappeared from<br>
> western Europe by the early 5th century. They had withdrawn from<br>
> Britain in 410, they had left northern Gaul in around 406. The only<br>
> force that could oppose the Vandals, Sueves and Alans near Mainz in<br>
> 406 were the Franks, who acted as Roman federates. The proper Roman<br>
> army, or what was left of it was nowhere to be seen. Where had all the<br>
> soldiers gone who left Britain and Gaul. Many of them propably joined<br>
> new military forces such as the Goths and Franks in Roman employment.<br>
> So again the group we call Visigoths in the 5th century should not be<br>
> mistaken as "a people" let alone "nation" it was a army employed by<br>
> Rome against other armies like the Vandals, Sueves and the Bagaudae.<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
> Dirk<br>
Hails,<br>
<br>
I'm afraid I can't accept the current narrative of the Gothic <br>
settlement.<br>
<br>
An army of 10,000 people would usually require a population base of <br>
at least 200,000 people, though skewed demographics might reduce this <br>
to some 100,000 people, which is still far too large for one <br>
migrating group. A group of 30,000 people, with skewed demographics, <br>
still could mobilize more than 3,000 people. Modern armies, including <br>
their logistical tail, as well as local militias, almost never exceed <br>
5% of the population in the most intense mobilizations.<br>
<br>
Faced with dueling impossibilities, we must return to the evidence. <br>
We can't trust the historical evidence for numbers, and we can't <br>
trust the place-name evidence without more careful examination, but <br>
what does the archaeological evidence reveal about the patterns of <br>
settlement? In many ways, if it is indeed confirmed, settlement-in- <br>
distinct-communitie<wbr>s makes the survival of the language more likely, <br>
and the creation of place-names less likely, than settlement-in-<wbr>manors.<br>
<br>
Mike.<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span>
<!-- Start the section with Message In topic -->
<div id="ygrp-actbar">
<span class="left">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/9800;_ylc=X3oDMTM0ZDJjMzBtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzk4MDUEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMTg1MzYwODA2BHRwY0lkAzk4MDA-">
Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">0</span>)
</span>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwMm44MmRwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzk4MDUEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMTg1MzYwODA2?act=reply&messageNum=9805">
<span class="bld">
Reply </span> (via web post)
</a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbXJxMjJzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NTM2MDgwNg--" class="bld">
Start a new topic </a>
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vitnav">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbTFqMXUxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTE4NTM2MDgwNg--">Messages</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYmVtdHQ5BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTE4NTM2MDgwNg--">Members</a>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- Do not have place to put it yet -->
<div id="ygrp-grft">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<!-- yahoo logo -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-ft">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNnVscDNhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMTg1MzYwODA2">
<img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdXZhbm02BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzExODUzNjA4MDY-">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNnZiZ2o2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMTg1MzYwODA2">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=">
Unsubscribe </a>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:140px;float: left; clear: none; margin-left: 5px; background:white; margin-bottom:25px ;position:absolute; top:0; right: 0;">
<!-- Network content -->
<!-- Start vitality -->
<div id="ygrp-vital">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZHRuYjFwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTE4NTM2MDgwNg--">
Visit Your Group </a>
</div>
<div id="hd">SPONSORED LINKS</div>
<div id="ov">
<ul>
<li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjN3ZxYWp2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzEEZ3JwSWQDMTAyMDU5OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3MzkyMDYEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExODUzNjA4MDY-?t=ms&k=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w1=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w2=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&c=2&s=75&g=2&.sig=HcA2Gka9ver96eXrT3Jqlg">Nh lake region real estate</a></li>
<li><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/gads;_ylc=X3oDMTJjNzZ1MHU1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BF9wAzIEZ3JwSWQDMTAyMDU5OARncnBzcElkAzE3MDU3MzkyMDYEc2VjA3NsbW9kBHN0aW1lAzExODUzNjA4MDY-?t=ms&k=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&w1=Nh+lake+region+real+estate&w2=New+hampshire+lake+region+real+estate&c=2&s=75&g=2&.sig=VzceW82Yh9iNe-OnKKJhSA">New hampshire lake region real estate</a></li>
</ul>
</div>
<!-- Network content -->
<div id="nc">
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Moderator Central</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jpar82u/M=493064.10729651.11333342.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1185368006/A=4699083/R=0/SIG=115gt68pf/*http://moderators.groups.yahoo.com/">An online resource</a></p>
<p>for moderators</p>
<p>of Yahoo! Groups.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">HDTV Support</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jtd8a9n/M=493064.10972170.11554072.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1185368006/A=4706132/R=0/SIG=11f8fj6tf/*http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/samsunghd/">The official Samsung</a></p>
<p>Y! Group for HDTVs</p>
<p>and devices.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<html><head></head><body><div id="hd1">Find Enlightenment</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12jf59007/M=493064.10771301.11554070.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1185368006/A=4699087/R=0/SIG=11pv8cj55/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/yogazone/index.html">Yoga groups and</a></p>
<p>resources on</p>
<p>Yahoo! Groups.</p>
</body></html> </div>
</div>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=9805/stime=1185360806/nc1=4699083/nc2=4706132/nc3=4699087" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
#ygrp-text{
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p{
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-tpmsgs{
font-family: Arial;
clear: both;
}
#ygrp-vitnav{
padding-top: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-vitnav a{
padding: 0 1px;
}
#ygrp-actbar{
clear: both;
margin: 25px 0;
white-space:nowrap;
color: #666;
text-align: right;
}
#ygrp-actbar .left{
float: left;
white-space:nowrap;
}
.bld{font-weight:bold;}
#ygrp-grft{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
padding: 15px 0;
}
#ygrp-ft{
font-family: verdana;
font-size: 77%;
border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a {
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc {
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o {font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq {margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->