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<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, Michael Erwin <merwin@...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I assume that the Gothic language was more often spoken in 5th- <br>
> century Aquitaine than in 6th-century Spain. I would expect the <br>
same <br>
> density of Gothic place-names in Aquitaine as Swabisk place-names <br>
in <br>
> northwestern Spain, and a gradual drop-off of place-name-density <br>
> between Aquitaine, Catalonia, and central Spain.<br>
> <br>
> But what is the known Gothic-place-<wbr>name-density in Aquitaine? If it <br>
> is less than the Swabisk place-name-density in northwestern Spain, <br>
> I'd expect that people have recognized the latter more easily than <br>
> the former.<br>
><br>
<br>
Hi, <br>
<br>
if you read 5 papers on placename evidence you typically get 5 <br>
different opinions. There are really no "Swabisk" (I guess you mean <br>
Suevic) place names in north-west Spain and as for so called Gothic <br>
placenames in Aquitaine or Spain there is really very very little that <br>
is convincing. Take Andalusia and Katalania for example. Some <br>
linguists argued that these names were derived from names like <br>
*Vandalusia (i.e. refering to the Vandals) and Gotolonia (refering to <br>
the Goths). Both derivation are complete nonsense, but they show how <br>
creative people were with wellknown regional names. Imagine the degree <br>
of creativity applied to small villages and hamlets. <br>
<br>
The Goths in Spain settled not in villages but in an around larger <br>
towns and garrisons. Only a few high status individuals aquired rustic <br>
villas and what is most importantly, the people we called Goths in <br>
Spain didn't speak Gothic, at least not in the 6th and 7th centuries. <br>
Finally, all this supposed placename evidence assumes that the <br>
classical sources were reliable about the numbers of Goths in Spain. <br>
Thus, in the older literature you can find numbers of around 100000 to <br>
200000 or even more. Archaeologists and historians like R. Collins now <br>
think that the number was more likely to be around 30000. I.e. 30000 <br>
people that included perhaps 10000 fighting men. In the early 5th <br>
century this was an unopposable force in Spain, which is why they <br>
found easy employment by the Romans, who employed them first to clear <br>
Spain of other Germanic marauders like the Vandals; who were then <br>
ordered back to Gaul to deal with the Baugaudic threat in the Loire <br>
region and who again employed against Sueves and other internal <br>
opposition. In fact, as Collins sets out nicely this Gothic mercenary <br>
army was indistinguishable from a proper Roman army. Both were <br>
Christian, both included many ethnic Germans, but also many non-<br>
Germanic people; both were Christians, both moved around with their <br>
wives and children both were similarly dressed and equipped and <br>
importantly both spoke a Latin-Germanic military pidgin that was <br>
mutually comprehensible. <br>
<br>
Yet, the official Roman armies had almost completely disappeared from <br>
western Europe by the early 5th century. They had withdrawn from <br>
Britain in 410, they had left northern Gaul in around 406. The only <br>
force that could oppose the Vandals, Sueves and Alans near Mainz in <br>
406 were the Franks, who acted as Roman federates. The proper Roman <br>
army, or what was left of it was nowhere to be seen. Where had all the <br>
soldiers gone who left Britain and Gaul. Many of them propably joined <br>
new military forces such as the Goths and Franks in Roman employment. <br>
So again the group we call Visigoths in the 5th century should not be <br>
mistaken as "a people" let alone "nation" it was a army employed by <br>
Rome against other armies like the Vandals, Sueves and the Bagaudae.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Dirk<br>
<br>
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