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<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> > 1. Leo Wiener: Commentary to the Germanic Laws and Medieval <br>
> Documents:<br>
> > "In Spain the Gothic language existed as late as the year 1091, <br>
> for it<br>
> > was in that year prohibited by a decree of the Synod of <br>
> Leon." "'Et<br>
> > interfuit etiam Renerius legatus, et Romanae ecclesiae Cardinalis,<br>
> > ibidemque celebrato concilio cum Bernardo Toletano primate, multa <br>
> de<br>
> > officijs ecclesiae statuerunt, et etiam de caetero omnes scriptores<br>
> > omissa litera Toletana, quam Gulfilas Gothorum Episcopus adinuenit,<br>
> > Gallicis literis vterentur,' Roderici Toletani (Rodrigo Ximenes)<br>
> > Chronicon, lib, VI, cap. XXX. See Hefele, Conciliengeschichte<wbr>, 2nd<br>
> > ed., vol. V, p. 201. The assertion made somewhere that the <br>
> reference<br>
> > is to a calligraphy and not to the Gothic language is without any<br>
> > foundation, for the Gothic alphabet was never used for anything but<br>
> > Gothic." Admittedly Wiener expresses some eccentric views <br>
> elsewhere<br>
> > in this book and disputes the generally accepted chronology of the<br>
> > surviving Gothic manuscripts, but I'd be curious to know what <br>
> people<br>
> > make of this quote. Of course, even if this does indicate the<br>
> > survival of the Gothic written language, it doesn't necessarily <br>
> mean<br>
> > that it was still spoken.<br>
> <br>
> It's very difficult, though tempting, to think that Gothic was <br>
> spoken up to the 11th century. My first impression of the quote is <br>
> that it says about a single letter (litera Toletana vs. Gallicis <br>
> literis) which had been borrowed from the Gothic (or maybe some <br>
> other forgotten alphabet) into the mode of writing of Iberian <br>
> scribes. It could be the letter for þ, for example. Like Old English <br>
> scribes who retained several runic letters (þ and w, if I remember <br>
> right) in the Latin-based alphabet of their manuscripts.<br>
<br>
That's another intriguing possibility, and raises the question of<br>
whether these supplementary letters were used because Gothic was being<br>
written with the Roman alphabet, or if they'd been taken over by<br>
writers of Latin. On the other hand, Traupman: New College Latin &<br>
English Dictionary offers two senses in the singular: "letter" but<br>
also "handwriting"<wbr>, so maybe it could refer to the Gothic script as a<br>
whole.<br>
<br>
> if I remember <br>
> right<br>
<br>
You do. Other runic letters were used very occasionally to stand for<br>
the word of their name, e.g. the m-rune for "man", but 'þ' and 'w'<br>
were the two that were adopted and fully naturalised in the Roman<br>
alphabet as used for writing Old English.<br>
<br>
> <br>
> > 2. Tabula gentes, 550. I'd be interested to know more about this<br>
> > document and the context of the term Valagothi. Is it used <br>
> anywhere<br>
> > else in texts of this time and place? Is the prefix Vala- used<br>
> > elsewhere in a similar context? Is linguistic 'Romanisation' the <br>
> only<br>
> > possible interpretation? The Valagothi also are named in the <br>
> Historia<br>
> > Brittonum, in a passage tracing the supposed descent of <br>
> contemporary<br>
> > peoples from the Hebrew patriarchs of the Bible, I:17: "Armenon <br>
> autem<br>
> > habuit quinque filios: Gothus, Valagothus, Gebidus, Burgundus,<br>
> > Longobardus. [...]. ab Armenone autem quinque: Gothi, Valagothi,<br>
> > Gebidi, Burgundi, Longobardi." This text may go back to the 11th <br>
> c.,<br>
> > although it has traditionally been attributed to Nennius, d. 809.<br>
> <br>
> There was a name Valgautr which Cleasby-Vigfusson lead back to val-<br>
> "Roman", not to val "slain". I don't know if it's relevant here.<br>
<br>
That's quite possible, although how exactly these names were<br>
understood at any one time might be a matter of speculation. It<br>
certainly has the meaning Roman/Celtic/<wbr>non-Germanic at various times<br>
in various Germanic languages. Perhaps the earliest example is the<br>
Ancient Nordic Tjurkö inscription contains the word 'walhakurne'<br>
(dative singular), usually interpreted as a kenning for gold, "Roman<br>
corn." And the 'serki valrauða' offered in Atlakviða are perhaps<br>
golden red shirts, rather than shirts red with gore; I imagine such a<br>
present would be a bit of a faux pas even for Huns! I was just<br>
wondering if there was any more context to the use of the term<br>
specifically in France at this time, if it is attested there in any<br>
other texts, and how sure we can be that it denotes Roman language as<br>
opposed to Roman culture, appearance, Roman luxury/wealth/<wbr>opulence or<br>
style. I'm not saying that it necessarily doesn't denote language,<br>
just wondering how we could narrow down the possibilities.<br>
<br>
> [...]<br>
> > 8. Placenames. A complex issue, obviously. It seems that there <br>
> are<br>
> > placenames in Iberia and France attributed to the Goths, but we<br>
> > haven't come to any agreement about what their distribution might <br>
> show<br>
> > about how long the language survived. We might have to consider <br>
> that<br>
> > naming traditions could have outlasted the Gothic language, and <br>
> that<br>
> > placenames could have been formed by analogy with other placenames<br>
> > using Gothic elements, even by Romance speakers. Compare the use <br>
> of<br>
> > -ville as a suffix in US placenames.<br>
> <br>
> The city of Burgos – is it a Gothic name (baurgs)?<br>
<br>
I always assumed so. It's the one that immediately leaps out at you<br>
when you look at a map. Are there smaller places with the same name<br>
too? A number of websites mention the Gothic origin of the name, but<br>
I don't know whether any cite scholarly sources. The citation of<br>
Wright's primer by the Wikipedia article may just be to confirm the<br>
form of the Gothic word, rather than back up its identification as the<br>
origin of the Spanish placename. One person speculates in a forum<br>
that this word might have been adopted already into Latin as a naming<br>
element.<br>
<br>
LN<br>
<br>
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