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<p>Háils,<br>
<br>
I suspect this message never reached the list... my excuses if it did and you get it twice...<br>
Cheers,<br>
Rydwlf<br>
<br>
Rydwlf <<a href="mailto:mitsuhippon%40yahoo.com">mitsuhippon@<wbr>yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br>
Dear Ualarauans and all,<br>
<br>
As I wrote in a previous mail, unfortunately I can't think of any masculine substantive retaining a final -s from Latin. I'm not saying that there are none, but I really think it's difficult to find one and in any case that wouldn't be a strong proof for the first theory. Anyway I'd like to read more on this first theory, but I haven't been able to find more detailed references to the supposed burgus->Burgus-<wbr>>Burgos (let's say) evolution rather than for the burgus->burgo-<wbr>>Burgos one.<br>
<br>
Still the Carolus->Carlos would be proof supporting the first theory... but I don't know if it's enough to invalidate the 'second theory'.<br>
<br>
About the toponyms of Arab origin, I remember some sources telling about a number of 1500 place names of Arab origin in modern Spain. This is a high number indeed, but I'd like to confirm it. As a comparison, the current number of cities and villages in Spain is 8111 (National Statistics Institute, 2007). As you rightly point out, there are some toponyms basing in "al-qasr". In Spain there are like 25 place names basing in "Alcazar". In Portuguese, the corresponding name is "Alcácer", which also appears frequently. But we have to bear in mind too that alcazar became a Spanish word to designate a fortress, and it was used also after the Arab domination, so some of the places with that word can be not of Arab origin. Same applies to "Burgo", though. That would explain the apparition of place names of germanic/arab origin far from areas of dominance of the respective people.<br>
<br>
About Villafría, it's literal "cold village", but it could be a later assimilation from a *villa frija as you propose. The amount of suggestive names of Castilian villages is incredible. Sometimes when I drive through the roads of Valladolid, Palencia or Burgos, I find some references that trigger my imagination. Maybe some people in the list which have far more knowledge about linguistics and the Gothic language should take a look at a map of the area, if you haven't done that... I can guarantee some surprises :)<br>
<br>
(Right on the spot I remember driving past villages like "Palacios de Goda" (Palaces of the Goth (f.)), "Velliza" (reminds me of waíla + iza), "Wamba" (there is a village named after the King Wamba)...)<br>
<br>
Valladolid : <a href="http://www.diputaciondevalladolid.es/mapa/">http://www.diputaci<wbr>ondevalladolid.<wbr>es/mapa/</a><br>
Burgos: <a href="http://209.15.138.224/inmonacional/m_p_burgos.htm">http://209.15.<wbr>138.224/inmonaci<wbr>onal/m_p_<wbr>burgos.htm</a><br>
Palencia: <a href="http://209.15.138.224/inmonacional/m_p_palencia.htm">http://209.15.<wbr>138.224/inmonaci<wbr>onal/m_p_<wbr>palencia.<wbr>htm</a><br>
<br>
Nice name-seeing :)<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Rydwlf<br>
<br>
ualarauans <<a href="mailto:ualarauans%40yahoo.com">ualarauans@yahoo.<wbr>com</a>> wrote:<br>
The very name of Castilia comes from a word which means "fortress". <br>
There are probably as much geographical names derived from Arab al-<br>
casr in the south, aren't there? <br>
<br>
Even if Burgos comes from Latin rather than Gothic, the Goths in <br>
Spain (if they still spoke their language, and I think some of them <br>
did) must have recognized it as (a Late Gothic reflex of Wulfilan) <br>
baurgs. Or the name (Baurgs) given and used by the Gothic elite was <br>
interpreted by Romans as Burgus. This would explain the lack of <br>
traces of the "breaking" (u > o) in the Modern Spanish form.<br>
<br>
Ualarauans<br>
<br>
> LN<br>
<br>
P.S. The name VILLAFRIA (DE BURGOS) could it really be something <br>
like *villa frija "free settlement" in Late Gothic or is there a <br>
Romance etymology?<br>
<br>
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--CwUFyoFlyy-2QI9864bqmeSxNR1eYwg7G8LR4Rx--====================================Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 04:14:48 -0000
Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
Sender: Gothic Culture, History And Language <gothic-l@egroups.com>
Comments: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys
From: ualarauans <ualarauans@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Attila's speech
Comments: To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
In-Reply-To: <fakfod+30oh@eGroups.com>
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Hi, all fans of the Gothic language (if some are still alive out
here ;-).
Having revised the text over and over again I've arrived at the
following version. All major emendations are listed below. The words
in <...> have no matches in the Latin original but seem to be rather
indispensable in Gothic. Your recommendations are, as before,
welcome.
(Getica 202-206 Gothice uersa)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[Attila qaț:]
Afar sigiza swalaudaizo țiudo, afar midjungard, jabai gastandaiț,
gatamidana, until domidedjau <izwis> swaswe unweisans waihtais
waurdam inwagjan. Sokjai țata andizuh niujis drauhtins aițțau
unfraisans harjis. Nih mis binauht ist hva gamainjata rodjan, nih
izwis skuld ist hausjan. Hva raihtis anțar jus nibai militon biuhtai
<sijuț>? Aițțau hva gumin swințamma woțizo țau fraweit handau
sokjan? Mikila giba <ist> at wistai ahmans fragildis sadans briggan.
Anaqimaima nu andastați mundrai: balțizans sind sinteino țaiei
farand du harjon. Gaqumanaim frakunneiț missaleikaim țiudom: bandwo
faurhteins ist gamainduțai driugan. Sai faura ufarruna unsaramma
agisa ju dishabanda, hlaina sokjand, haugans nimand jah <in> seițjai
idreigai in haițjom tulgițos usbidand. Kunț izwis ist hvan sijaina
leihta Rumone sarwa: frumein jan-ni qița wundufnjai, ak silbin
stubjau kaurjanda, mițțanei in tewai gagaggand jah hansos <in>
skildubaurg gawidand. Jus haifstjaiț gastoțaim ahmam swe biuhtai,
fra-h-kunnandans harja ize Allanans dissitiț, in Wisugutans
atdriusiț. Țaruh uns adrata sigis sokjan <skuld ist>, țarei sik
habaiț waihjo. Afmaitanai țan <af> sinwom suns lițjus afsliupand,
nih mag standan leik țammei baina usnimis. Urreisaina ahmans, moțs
swikunțs ufarwahsjai. Nu mitonins, Huneis, nu wepna uslukiț: jabai
gawundoțs hvas andastațjis dauțu gatilo, aițțau hails fijande
slauhtais gasoțjaidau. Țans sigizwairțjans ni ainohun arhvazno
undrinniț, țans dauțubljans jah in rimisa waiwaurds gadrauseiț. Bi
spedistin duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa managaim țiudom hroțeigans
ustaiknida, nibai du țizos haifstais swegnițai gamanwidedi? Țațroț-
țan hvas Aujo wig țaim airizam unsaraim gabairhtida țana swa laggos
aldins galukanan fulginana? Hvas nauh țaim wepnalausam gakunnan
gatawida țans gawepnodans? Andawleizn Hune ni mahtedun bairan
galisanai alamans. Ik ni afairzjada bi țata habando gadaban: her
akrs ist țanei unsis swa managos ansteis gahaihaitun. Fruma in
andastați spiuta gawairpa. Jabai hvas magi <at> Attilin weihandin
gahveilain <sis> haban, gafulhans ist.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
tantarum = swalaudaizo "so great" instead of swa managaizo "so
many". The Latin word can mean both, but since only Lat. tot is used
for "so many" throughout the fragment we may probably argue that
here Jordanes (Attila) emphasized the "greatness" (numerical value
of each), not just plain number, of the nations that had been
conquered by the Huns up to the day of the Catalaunic battle.
autem "indeed" = raihtis (was: swețauh). Not that I can sufficiently
support this choice with arguments. I just feel this sounds better.
ante impetum "before [our] attack" = faura ufarruna. Actually when
(re-)constructing *ufarruns M.-i (cf. Mod. Engl. "to overrun",
Germ. "überrennen", albeit with a slightly different meaning) I
didn't recall Greek EPIDROMH which fits perfectly in for translating
Lat. impetus. It's not easy to think that the Goths were lacking
such a word in their otherwise presumably very rich military lexicon
so that they had to calque Greek. Still, as far as nothing better is
in sight, this would do. Compare additionally Go. ufarmeleins
(ufarmeli) for Gr. EPIGRAFH, ufarhiminakunds for EPOURANIOS and
other examples where Go. ufar- = Gr. EP(I)-. Go. runs stands in the
Bible for Gr. DROMOS "running" as well as RUSIS "flow".
nota uobis sunt "you know", lit. [these things (neuter plural)] are
familiar to you" = kunț izwis ist (singular) replacing kunța izwis
sind (plural). I asked the question whether this plural was good
Latin or an error on a mailing list dedicated to Latin studies
(http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/) and I was told that
it is certainly wrong here and that most likely Jordanes was
thinking about the word Lat. arma "arms" (equally neuter plural)
following in the subordinate clause. Well, for Lat. arma my Gothic
has sarwa, neuer plural as well, and one could be inclined to keep
this (erroneous) peculiarity (plural kunța izwis sind) as a trait of
Jordanes' authorship. Still, good Gothic would demand singular, like
Latin. (see e.g. Eph. 3:5).
et acies testudineque conectunt = jah hansos <in> skildubaurg
gawidand. Undoubtedly the most obscure place in the whole fragment.
Mierow has it as "and forming in one line with locked shields".
Apart from asking whether Go. hansa (actually "band of
warriors", "cohort") is good enough to render Lat. acies the form
testudineque seems to be quite out of sense here. My Gothic is
literally "and [they] join their cohorts together in a "fortress of
shields". Using -baurgs also helps me avoid addressing the question
what case dative or accusative must be put in here ;-)
se continet "finds itself" = sik habaiț (instead of sik gahabaiț).
The latter seems to have a different attested meaning ("to obstain").
abscisa autem neruis mox membra relabuntur (Mierow's) "when the
sinews are cut the limbs soon relax" = afmaitanai țan <af> sinwom
suns lițjus afsliupand. In the draft version I translated this
thinking that abscisa autem neruis must be absolute dative that
needs correction => abscisis autem neruis. Jordanes often makes
mistakes in his Latin, after all. But then I was told by experts
that abscisa in fact refers to membra, so it's the "limbs" which
are "cut off the sinews", literally. Hence the new Gothic reading.
postremo "finally" = bi spedistin (was: bi aftumin). The first is
factually attested in Mc. 16:14.
cur fortuna Hunnos tot gentium uictores adseret, nisi ad certaminis
huius gaudia praeparasset? (Mierow's) "why should Fortune have made
the Huns victorious over so many nations, unless it were to prepare
them for the joy of this conflict?" = duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa
managaim țiudom hroțeigans ustaiknida, nibai du țizos haifstais
swegnițai gamanwidedi? As you see I chose a descriptional way of
saying this, namely "why should Wodan have caused the Huns to
triumph over so many nations..." (see the same turn of speech in 2
Cor. 2:14), instead of trying to literally imitate Latin. Some may
wonder why it's Wodan who helps the Huns and even (in the next
sentence) opens them the way into Oium, but this as I said
is "interpretatio Gothica", much like Roman authors (Julius Caesar,
Tacitus) who described the ancient Germani worshipping Mercurius,
Iuppiter, Mars etc implying they were honored under their Germanic
names, i.e. *Wodanaz, *Țunraz, *Teiwaz respectively ("interpretatio
Romana"). Whenever a Goth was in need of referring to a Hunnish god
of battle and war fortune, Wodan was the most likely candidate to be
mentioned, if the person wanted to avoid long explanations and
awkwardly sounding foreign names. There was such a thing as "pagan
religious isomorphism", after all (hope I got the right word). And,
of course, I am not going to raise again the debate whether the
historical Goths knew the name of Wodan or not. If someone knows a
better (and more verifiable) option, let it be said here.
ad certaminis huius gaudia "for the joys of this battle" = du țizos
haifstais swegnițai (was: fahedai). Swegnița (Gr. AGALLIASIS) as
well as the corresponding verb swegnjan (AGALLIASQAI, BRABEUEIN)
seem to pertain more to "triumph" than fahețs, faginon which refer
to "joy" in general.
Well, that's all for now. If there are no objections on the part of
other listmembers, could we have this text put into the files
section of Gothic-L?
Ualarauans
--iEbUXM-FE8GBYJ71rFemYEcjhxQrg5ro5i3nTvn
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<p>Hi, all fans of the Gothic language (if some are still alive out <br>
here ;-).<br>
<br>
Having revised the text over and over again I've arrived at the <br>
following version. All major emendations are listed below. The words <br>
in <...> have no matches in the Latin original but seem to be rather <br>
indispensable in Gothic. Your recommendations are, as before, <br>
welcome.<br>
<br>
(Getica 202-206 Gothice uersa)<br>
<br>
++++++++++++<wbr>+++++++++<wbr>+++++++++<wbr>++++<br>
<br>
[Attila qaț:]<br>
<br>
Afar sigiza swalaudaizo țiudo, afar midjungard, jabai gastandaiț, <br>
gatamidana, until domidedjau <izwis> swaswe unweisans waihtais <br>
waurdam inwagjan. Sokjai țata andizuh niujis drauhtins aițțau <br>
unfraisans harjis. Nih mis binauht ist hva gamainjata rodjan, nih <br>
izwis skuld ist hausjan. Hva raihtis anțar jus nibai militon biuhtai <br>
<sijuț>? Aițțau hva gumin swințamma woțizo țau fraweit handau <br>
sokjan? Mikila giba <ist> at wistai ahmans fragildis sadans briggan. <br>
Anaqimaima nu andastați mundrai: balțizans sind sinteino țaiei <br>
farand du harjon. Gaqumanaim frakunneiț missaleikaim țiudom: bandwo <br>
faurhteins ist gamainduțai driugan. Sai faura ufarruna unsaramma <br>
agisa ju dishabanda, hlaina sokjand, haugans nimand jah <in> seițjai <br>
idreigai in haițjom tulgițos usbidand. Kunț izwis ist hvan sijaina <br>
leihta Rumone sarwa: frumein jan-ni qița wundufnjai, ak silbin <br>
stubjau kaurjanda, mițțanei in tewai gagaggand jah hansos <in> <br>
skildubaurg gawidand. Jus haifstjaiț gastoțaim ahmam swe biuhtai, <br>
fra-h-kunnandans harja ize Allanans dissitiț, in Wisugutans <br>
atdriusiț. Țaruh uns adrata sigis sokjan <skuld ist>, țarei sik <br>
habaiț waihjo. Afmaitanai țan <af> sinwom suns lițjus afsliupand, <br>
nih mag standan leik țammei baina usnimis. Urreisaina ahmans, moțs <br>
swikunțs ufarwahsjai. Nu mitonins, Huneis, nu wepna uslukiț: jabai <br>
gawundoțs hvas andastațjis dauțu gatilo, aițțau hails fijande <br>
slauhtais gasoțjaidau. Țans sigizwairțjans ni ainohun arhvazno <br>
undrinniț, țans dauțubljans jah in rimisa waiwaurds gadrauseiț. Bi <br>
spedistin duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa managaim țiudom hroțeigans <br>
ustaiknida, nibai du țizos haifstais swegnițai gamanwidedi? Țațroț-<br>
țan hvas Aujo wig țaim airizam unsaraim gabairhtida țana swa laggos <br>
aldins galukanan fulginana? Hvas nauh țaim wepnalausam gakunnan <br>
gatawida țans gawepnodans? Andawleizn Hune ni mahtedun bairan <br>
galisanai alamans. Ik ni afairzjada bi țata habando gadaban: her <br>
akrs ist țanei unsis swa managos ansteis gahaihaitun. Fruma in <br>
andastați spiuta gawairpa. Jabai hvas magi <at> Attilin weihandin <br>
gahveilain <sis> haban, gafulhans ist.<br>
<br>
++++++++++++<wbr>+++++++++<wbr>+++++++++<wbr>++++<br>
<br>
tantarum = swalaudaizo "so great" instead of swa managaizo "so <br>
many". The Latin word can mean both, but since only Lat. tot is used <br>
for "so many" throughout the fragment we may probably argue that <br>
here Jordanes (Attila) emphasized the "greatness" (numerical value <br>
of each), not just plain number, of the nations that had been <br>
conquered by the Huns up to the day of the Catalaunic battle.<br>
<br>
autem "indeed" = raihtis (was: swețauh). Not that I can sufficiently <br>
support this choice with arguments. I just feel this sounds better.<br>
<br>
ante impetum "before [our] attack" = faura ufarruna. Actually when <br>
(re-)constructing *ufarruns M.-i (cf. Mod. Engl. "to overrun", <br>
Germ. "überrennen", albeit with a slightly different meaning) I <br>
didn't recall Greek EPIDROMH which fits perfectly in for translating <br>
Lat. impetus. It's not easy to think that the Goths were lacking <br>
such a word in their otherwise presumably very rich military lexicon <br>
so that they had to calque Greek. Still, as far as nothing better is <br>
in sight, this would do. Compare additionally Go. ufarmeleins <br>
(ufarmeli) for Gr. EPIGRAFH, ufarhiminakunds for EPOURANIOS and <br>
other examples where Go. ufar- = Gr. EP(I)-. Go. runs stands in the <br>
Bible for Gr. DROMOS "running" as well as RUSIS "flow".<br>
<br>
nota uobis sunt "you know", lit. [these things (neuter plural)] are <br>
familiar to you" = kunț izwis ist (singular) replacing kunța izwis <br>
sind (plural). I asked the question whether this plural was good <br>
Latin or an error on a mailing list dedicated to Latin studies <br>
(<a href="http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/">http://tech.<wbr>groups.yahoo.<wbr>com/group/<wbr>Latinitas/</a>) and I was told that <br>
it is certainly wrong here and that most likely Jordanes was <br>
thinking about the word Lat. arma "arms" (equally neuter plural) <br>
following in the subordinate clause. Well, for Lat. arma my Gothic <br>
has sarwa, neuer plural as well, and one could be inclined to keep <br>
this (erroneous) peculiarity (plural kunța izwis sind) as a trait of <br>
Jordanes' authorship. Still, good Gothic would demand singular, like <br>
Latin. (see e.g. Eph. 3:5).<br>
<br>
et acies testudineque conectunt = jah hansos <in> skildubaurg <br>
gawidand. Undoubtedly the most obscure place in the whole fragment. <br>
Mierow has it as "and forming in one line with locked shields". <br>
Apart from asking whether Go. hansa (actually "band of <br>
warriors", "cohort") is good enough to render Lat. acies the form <br>
testudineque seems to be quite out of sense here. My Gothic is <br>
literally "and [they] join their cohorts together in a "fortress of <br>
shields". Using -baurgs also helps me avoid addressing the question <br>
what case dative or accusative must be put in here ;-)<br>
<br>
se continet "finds itself" = sik habaiț (instead of sik gahabaiț). <br>
The latter seems to have a different attested meaning ("to obstain").<br>
<br>
abscisa autem neruis mox membra relabuntur (Mierow's) "when the <br>
sinews are cut the limbs soon relax" = afmaitanai țan <af> sinwom <br>
suns lițjus afsliupand. In the draft version I translated this <br>
thinking that abscisa autem neruis must be absolute dative that <br>
needs correction => abscisis autem neruis. Jordanes often makes <br>
mistakes in his Latin, after all. But then I was told by experts <br>
that abscisa in fact refers to membra, so it's the "limbs" which <br>
are "cut off the sinews", literally. Hence the new Gothic reading.<br>
<br>
postremo "finally" = bi spedistin (was: bi aftumin). The first is <br>
factually attested in Mc. 16:14.<br>
<br>
cur fortuna Hunnos tot gentium uictores adseret, nisi ad certaminis <br>
huius gaudia praeparasset? (Mierow's) "why should Fortune have made <br>
the Huns victorious over so many nations, unless it were to prepare <br>
them for the joy of this conflict?" = duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa <br>
managaim țiudom hroțeigans ustaiknida, nibai du țizos haifstais <br>
swegnițai gamanwidedi? As you see I chose a descriptional way of <br>
saying this, namely "why should Wodan have caused the Huns to <br>
triumph over so many nations..." (see the same turn of speech in 2 <br>
Cor. 2:14), instead of trying to literally imitate Latin. Some may <br>
wonder why it's Wodan who helps the Huns and even (in the next <br>
sentence) opens them the way into Oium, but this as I said <br>
is "interpretatio Gothica", much like Roman authors (Julius Caesar, <br>
Tacitus) who described the ancient Germani worshipping Mercurius, <br>
Iuppiter, Mars etc implying they were honored under their Germanic <br>
names, i.e. *Wodanaz, *Țunraz, *Teiwaz respectively ("interpretatio <br>
Romana"). Whenever a Goth was in need of referring to a Hunnish god <br>
of battle and war fortune, Wodan was the most likely candidate to be <br>
mentioned, if the person wanted to avoid long explanations and <br>
awkwardly sounding foreign names. There was such a thing as "pagan <br>
religious isomorphism"<wbr>, after all (hope I got the right word). And, <br>
of course, I am not going to raise again the debate whether the <br>
historical Goths knew the name of Wodan or not. If someone knows a <br>
better (and more verifiable) option, let it be said here.<br>
<br>
ad certaminis huius gaudia "for the joys of this battle" = du țizos <br>
haifstais swegnițai (was: fahedai). Swegnița (Gr. AGALLIASIS) as <br>
well as the corresponding verb swegnjan (AGALLIASQAI, BRABEUEIN) <br>
seem to pertain more to "triumph" than fahețs, faginon which refer <br>
to "joy" in general.<br>
<br>
Well, that's all for now. If there are no objections on the part of <br>
other listmembers, could we have this text put into the files <br>
section of Gothic-L?<br>
<br>
Ualarauans<br>
<br>
</p>
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#ygrp-vital a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc{
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o{font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal{
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq{margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
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</html><!--End group email -->
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