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<p>Dear Frederick,<br>
<br>
it's your right to unsubscribe whenever you wish, but please don't <br>
judge Ualarauans that way. Some members of this Gothi-L (including <br>
me) tried, several years ago, to translate in Gothic the beginning <br>
section of "Getica". We didn't regard this as history, but rather as <br>
a sort of literary work-up of Gothic mythology. "Getica" doesn't <br>
represent for us (or for me at least) a reliable source for Gothic <br>
history, but rather a piece of Gothic literature written in Latin. <br>
Therefore, it looks more appropriate to test our skills to translate <br>
into Gothic on a fragment of "Getica" than, let's say, on <br>
the "Aeneid".<br>
<br>
Francisc<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, Frederick Louis Scoggins <br>
<scoggins3375@<wbr>...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> ualarauans wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Hi, all fans of the Gothic language (if some are still alive out<br>
> > here ;-).<br>
> ><br>
> > Having revised the text over and over again I've arrived at the<br>
> > following version. All major emendations are listed below. The <br>
words<br>
> > in <...> have no matches in the Latin original but seem to be <br>
rather<br>
> > indispensable in Gothic. Your recommendations are, as before,<br>
> > welcome.<br>
> ><br>
> > (Getica 202-206 Gothice uersa)<br>
> ><br>
> > ++++++++++++<wbr>+++++++++<wbr>+++++++++<wbr>++++<br>
> ><br>
> > [Attila qaț:]<br>
> ><br>
> > Afar sigiza swalaudaizo țiudo, afar midjungard, jabai gastandaiț,<br>
> > gatamidana, until domidedjau <izwis> swaswe unweisans waihtais<br>
> > waurdam inwagjan. Sokjai țata andizuh niujis drauhtins aițțau<br>
> > unfraisans harjis. Nih mis binauht ist hva gamainjata rodjan, nih<br>
> > izwis skuld ist hausjan. Hva raihtis anțar jus nibai militon <br>
biuhtai<br>
> > <sijuț>? Aițțau hva gumin swințamma woțizo țau fraweit handau<br>
> > sokjan? Mikila giba <ist> at wistai ahmans fragildis sadans <br>
briggan.<br>
> > Anaqimaima nu andastați mundrai: balțizans sind sinteino țaiei<br>
> > farand du harjon. Gaqumanaim frakunneiț missaleikaim țiudom: <br>
bandwo<br>
> > faurhteins ist gamainduțai driugan. Sai faura ufarruna unsaramma<br>
> > agisa ju dishabanda, hlaina sokjand, haugans nimand jah <in> <br>
seițjai<br>
> > idreigai in haițjom tulgițos usbidand. Kunț izwis ist hvan sijaina<br>
> > leihta Rumone sarwa: frumein jan-ni qița wundufnjai, ak silbin<br>
> > stubjau kaurjanda, mițțanei in tewai gagaggand jah hansos <in><br>
> > skildubaurg gawidand. Jus haifstjaiț gastoțaim ahmam swe biuhtai,<br>
> > fra-h-kunnandans harja ize Allanans dissitiț, in Wisugutans<br>
> > atdriusiț. Țaruh uns adrata sigis sokjan <skuld ist>, țarei sik<br>
> > habaiț waihjo. Afmaitanai țan <af> sinwom suns lițjus afsliupand,<br>
> > nih mag standan leik țammei baina usnimis. Urreisaina ahmans, moțs<br>
> > swikunțs ufarwahsjai. Nu mitonins, Huneis, nu wepna uslukiț: jabai<br>
> > gawundoțs hvas andastațjis dauțu gatilo, aițțau hails fijande<br>
> > slauhtais gasoțjaidau. Țans sigizwairțjans ni ainohun arhvazno<br>
> > undrinniț, țans dauțubljans jah in rimisa waiwaurds gadrauseiț. Bi<br>
> > spedistin duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa managaim țiudom hroțeigans<br>
> > ustaiknida, nibai du țizos haifstais swegnițai gamanwidedi? <br>
Țațroț-<br>
> > țan hvas Aujo wig țaim airizam unsaraim gabairhtida țana swa <br>
laggos<br>
> > aldins galukanan fulginana? Hvas nauh țaim wepnalausam gakunnan<br>
> > gatawida țans gawepnodans? Andawleizn Hune ni mahtedun bairan<br>
> > galisanai alamans. Ik ni afairzjada bi țata habando gadaban: her<br>
> > akrs ist țanei unsis swa managos ansteis gahaihaitun. Fruma in<br>
> > andastați spiuta gawairpa. Jabai hvas magi <at> Attilin weihandin<br>
> > gahveilain <sis> haban, gafulhans ist.<br>
> ><br>
> > ++++++++++++<wbr>+++++++++<wbr>+++++++++<wbr>++++<br>
> ><br>
> > tantarum = swalaudaizo "so great" instead of swa managaizo "so<br>
> > many". The Latin word can mean both, but since only Lat. tot is <br>
used<br>
> > for "so many" throughout the fragment we may probably argue that<br>
> > here Jordanes (Attila) emphasized the "greatness" (numerical value<br>
> > of each), not just plain number, of the nations that had been<br>
> > conquered by the Huns up to the day of the Catalaunic battle.<br>
> ><br>
> > autem "indeed" = raihtis (was: swețauh). Not that I can <br>
sufficiently<br>
> > support this choice with arguments. I just feel this sounds <br>
better.<br>
> ><br>
> > ante impetum "before [our] attack" = faura ufarruna. Actually when<br>
> > (re-)constructing *ufarruns M.-i (cf. Mod. Engl. "to overrun",<br>
> > Germ. "überrennen", albeit with a slightly different meaning) I<br>
> > didn't recall Greek EPIDROMH which fits perfectly in for <br>
translating<br>
> > Lat. impetus. It's not easy to think that the Goths were lacking<br>
> > such a word in their otherwise presumably very rich military <br>
lexicon<br>
> > so that they had to calque Greek. Still, as far as nothing better <br>
is<br>
> > in sight, this would do. Compare additionally Go. ufarmeleins<br>
> > (ufarmeli) for Gr. EPIGRAFH, ufarhiminakunds for EPOURANIOS and<br>
> > other examples where Go. ufar- = Gr. EP(I)-. Go. runs stands in <br>
the<br>
> > Bible for Gr. DROMOS "running" as well as RUSIS "flow".<br>
> ><br>
> > nota uobis sunt "you know", lit. [these things (neuter plural)] <br>
are<br>
> > familiar to you" = kunț izwis ist (singular) replacing kunța izwis<br>
> > sind (plural). I asked the question whether this plural was good<br>
> > Latin or an error on a mailing list dedicated to Latin studies<br>
> > (<a href="http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/">http://tech.<wbr>groups.yahoo.<wbr>com/group/<wbr>Latinitas/</a> <br>
> > <<a href="http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Latinitas/">http://tech.<wbr>groups.yahoo.<wbr>com/group/<wbr>Latinitas/</a>>) and I was told <br>
that<br>
> > it is certainly wrong here and that most likely Jordanes was<br>
> > thinking about the word Lat. arma "arms" (equally neuter plural)<br>
> > following in the subordinate clause. Well, for Lat. arma my Gothic<br>
> > has sarwa, neuer plural as well, and one could be inclined to keep<br>
> > this (erroneous) peculiarity (plural kunța izwis sind) as a trait <br>
of<br>
> > Jordanes' authorship. Still, good Gothic would demand singular, <br>
like<br>
> > Latin. (see e.g. Eph. 3:5).<br>
> ><br>
> > et acies testudineque conectunt = jah hansos <in> skildubaurg<br>
> > gawidand. Undoubtedly the most obscure place in the whole <br>
fragment.<br>
> > Mierow has it as "and forming in one line with locked shields".<br>
> > Apart from asking whether Go. hansa (actually "band of<br>
> > warriors", "cohort") is good enough to render Lat. acies the form<br>
> > testudineque seems to be quite out of sense here. My Gothic is<br>
> > literally "and [they] join their cohorts together in a "fortress <br>
of<br>
> > shields". Using -baurgs also helps me avoid addressing the <br>
question<br>
> > what case dative or accusative must be put in here ;-)<br>
> ><br>
> > se continet "finds itself" = sik habaiț (instead of sik gahabaiț).<br>
> > The latter seems to have a different attested meaning ("to <br>
obstain").<br>
> ><br>
> > abscisa autem neruis mox membra relabuntur (Mierow's) "when the<br>
> > sinews are cut the limbs soon relax" = afmaitanai țan <af> sinwom<br>
> > suns lițjus afsliupand. In the draft version I translated this<br>
> > thinking that abscisa autem neruis must be absolute dative that<br>
> > needs correction => abscisis autem neruis. Jordanes often makes<br>
> > mistakes in his Latin, after all. But then I was told by experts<br>
> > that abscisa in fact refers to membra, so it's the "limbs" which<br>
> > are "cut off the sinews", literally. Hence the new Gothic reading.<br>
> ><br>
> > postremo "finally" = bi spedistin (was: bi aftumin). The first is<br>
> > factually attested in Mc. 16:14.<br>
> ><br>
> > cur fortuna Hunnos tot gentium uictores adseret, nisi ad <br>
certaminis<br>
> > huius gaudia praeparasset? (Mierow's) "why should Fortune have <br>
made<br>
> > the Huns victorious over so many nations, unless it were to <br>
prepare<br>
> > them for the joy of this conflict?" = duhve Wodans Hunins ana swa<br>
> > managaim țiudom hroțeigans ustaiknida, nibai du țizos haifstais<br>
> > swegnițai gamanwidedi? As you see I chose a descriptional way of<br>
> > saying this, namely "why should Wodan have caused the Huns to<br>
> > triumph over so many nations..." (see the same turn of speech in 2<br>
> > Cor. 2:14), instead of trying to literally imitate Latin. Some may<br>
> > wonder why it's Wodan who helps the Huns and even (in the next<br>
> > sentence) opens them the way into Oium, but this as I said<br>
> > is "interpretatio Gothica", much like Roman authors (Julius <br>
Caesar,<br>
> > Tacitus) who described the ancient Germani worshipping Mercurius,<br>
> > Iuppiter, Mars etc implying they were honored under their Germanic<br>
> > names, i.e. *Wodanaz, *Țunraz, *Teiwaz respectively <br>
("interpretatio<br>
> > Romana"). Whenever a Goth was in need of referring to a Hunnish <br>
god<br>
> > of battle and war fortune, Wodan was the most likely candidate to <br>
be<br>
> > mentioned, if the person wanted to avoid long explanations and<br>
> > awkwardly sounding foreign names. There was such a thing as "pagan<br>
> > religious isomorphism"<wbr>, after all (hope I got the right word). <br>
And,<br>
> > of course, I am not going to raise again the debate whether the<br>
> > historical Goths knew the name of Wodan or not. If someone knows a<br>
> > better (and more verifiable) option, let it be said here.<br>
> ><br>
> > ad certaminis huius gaudia "for the joys of this battle" = du <br>
țizos<br>
> > haifstais swegnițai (was: fahedai). Swegnița (Gr. AGALLIASIS) as<br>
> > well as the corresponding verb swegnjan (AGALLIASQAI, BRABEUEIN)<br>
> > seem to pertain more to "triumph" than fahețs, faginon which refer<br>
> > to "joy" in general.<br>
> ><br>
> > Well, that's all for now. If there are no objections on the part <br>
of<br>
> > other listmembers, could we have this text put into the files<br>
> > section of Gothic-L?<br>
> ><br>
> > Ualarauans<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> > ------------<wbr>---------<wbr>---------<wbr>---------<wbr>---------<wbr>---------<wbr>-<br>
------<br>
> ><br>
> > No virus found in this incoming message.<br>
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition. <br>
> > Version: 7.5.484 / Virus Database: 269.13.2/985 - Release Date: <br>
9/2/2007 4:32 PM<br>
> > <br>
> Dear Ualarauans,<br>
> <br>
> After this short message I shall unsubscribe from the Gothic <br>
newsletter. <br>
> First you are obviously deceived into thinking that the entire <br>
writtings <br>
> of Jordanes are accurate instead of the cut and paste propaganda of <br>
a <br>
> third rate political and religious hack who tried to deceive <br>
readers <br>
> into accepting it as the condensed work of a lost Roman historian. <br>
> Jordanes may be a source but he ranks somewhat below Goering and <br>
has the <br>
> same glorious interpretation of Germanic history as the Nazis had. <br>
If I <br>
> were to discover that you had facist inclinations it would not <br>
surprise <br>
> me in the least. In your favor of course is your language skills, <br>
they <br>
> appear admirable! Please enjoy your past time by yourself...<br>
> <br>
> Goodbye,<br>
> <br>
> Frederick Louis Scoggins<br>
><br>
<br>
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.bld{font-weight:bold;}
#ygrp-grft{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
padding: 15px 0;
}
#ygrp-ft{
font-family: verdana;
font-size: 77%;
border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc{
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o{font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal{
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq{margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->