<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body style="background-color: #ffffff;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, Justïn <justinelf@.<wbr>..> wrote:<br>
><br>
> That was an awesome answer Lama, I actually have an obnoxious question <br>
> the likes of which you would expect from an amateur Gothic enthusiast <br>
> who's only had one 4000 level course in linguistics:<br>
> <br>
> How can I learn to do that? I want to be able to derive my own <br>
> reconstructions from Proto-Germanic and back engineer my own words. If <br>
> I could do that, I would post list after list of neologisms for <br>
> scholarly criticisms until we had a veritable dictionary of Gothic <br>
> words and phrases. Granted, this may be coming out of young-blood <br>
> fervour but I am certainly interested in the back-engineering.<br>
> <br>
> Are there any pre-established guides and resources to these Gothic <br>
> patterns, and which Proto-Germanic source are you using and where can I <br>
> get one?<br>
> <br>
> Are we all using the same source for Proto-Germanic or is this in and <br>
> of itself a highly debated issue of favouring this or that resource?<br>
<br>
There are plenty of uncertainties in Proto-Germanic vocabulary! <br>
Generally speaking, the sound change rules are regular, but language<br>
being a human thing, quirks creep in. For example, a word which is<br>
attested in more than one branch of Germanic may follow different<br>
declensions in the different dialects, so you could reconstruct the<br>
same Proto-Germanic root from each, but different endings. There's a<br>
lot of that sort of thing. Even if we knew everything about the<br>
history of the language, we probably still wouldn't be able to point<br>
to a single community of Proto-Germanic speakers speaking a perfectly<br>
uniform language; it's a scholarly idealisation.<br>
<br>
To reconstruct a Proto-Germanic word from a Gothic one, or the other<br>
way around, you need to know all the relevant sound changes that might<br>
affect the sounds in the word between Gothic and PG. There's a lot od<br>
useful stuff about this in the early chapters of Wright's Gothic<br>
Grammar [ <a href="http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/texts/goth_wright_about.html">http://lexicon.<wbr>ff.cuni.cz/<wbr>texts/goth_<wbr>wright_about.<wbr>html</a> ]. <br>
Gerhard Köbler's Gothic dictionary has etymologies, but often gives a<br>
few options for possible PG reconstructions, so you might need to know<br>
a bit in advance to come to any conclusion about which is more likel <br>
Gerhard Köbler has a Proto-Germanic dictionary too along with<br>
dictionaries of the earliest attested stages of the main branches of<br>
Germanic [ <a href="http://www.koeblergerhard.de/publikat.html">http://www.koeblerg<wbr>erhard.de/<wbr>publikat.<wbr>html</a> ]. There's<br>
another important etymological dictionary of Proto-Germanic at Sean<br>
Christ's site: Falk, Fick, Torp: Wörterbuch der Indogermanischen<br>
Sprachen: Dritter Teil: Wortschatz der Germanischen Spracheinheit [<br>
<a href="http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/etc/aa_texts.html">http://lexicon.<wbr>ff.cuni.cz/<wbr>etc/aa_texts.<wbr>html</a> ].<br>
<br>
Another handy link: Lorenz Diefenbach: Vergleichendes Wörterbuch der<br>
gotischen Sprache [<br>
<a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=ZqAFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PP13#PPR1,M1">http://books.<wbr>google.com/<wbr>books?id=<wbr>ZqAFAAAAQAAJ&<wbr>pg=PP13#PPR1,<wbr>M1</a> ].<br>
<br>
If you have a word in say Old Norse and you want to reconstruct a<br>
Gothic cognate, you need to know all the relavant sound changes that<br>
would have affected the sounds in the word in its evolution from PG to<br>
ON, as well as the Gothic sound changes. For this, a good starting<br>
point in English is Gordon's Introduction to Old Norse. In German,<br>
there's Adolf Noreen's Altisländische und altnorwegische Grammatik [<br>
<a href="http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/texts/oi_noreen_about.html">http://lexicon.<wbr>ff.cuni.cz/<wbr>texts/oi_<wbr>noreen_about.<wbr>html</a> ]; this has more<br>
detail than Gordon. Other grammars on Sean Christ's site have<br>
informations about Old Saxon, etc. For Old English sound changes,<br>
Campbell's Old English Grammar is very good.<br>
<br>
Very often, distinctions of sounds in PG have been lost in later<br>
Germanic languages, so it's not always clear how to reconstruct a word<br>
that's only recorded in one or two dialects. For example, /e/ in Old<br>
English sometimes comes from PG /e/, sometimes /i/, sometimes /a/. <br>
Which it was in PG depends on what vowel came in the following<br>
syllable; but often this vowel will have been lost or reduced in Old<br>
English, in which case you need to find cognates in other Germanic<br>
languages to triangulate by. Likewise /o:/ in Old Norse might be from<br>
PG /o:/ (fór) or /ah/ (nótt) or /unh/ (þótti), etc. So again, you can<br>
only tell which if the same word is recorded in a dialect that did<br>
keep the distinction that Old Norse lost. Sometimes the<br>
Proto-Germanic form, supposing the word really is from PG, is clear<br>
from just one dialect; sometimes you need two or more to calibrate,<br>
using each to make up for the deficiencies of the others. Sometimes<br>
you even need to look further afield at cognates in other<br>
Indo-European languages.<br>
<br>
It can also help to know a bit about the grammar of the various early<br>
Germanic languages. Sometimes it's possible to deduce what<br>
inflectional vowels would have probably been in PG from the way a word<br>
is declined in one of the later languages, even if the vowel itself<br>
has been lost; e.g. you can tell from the way Old Norse 'staðr'<br>
"place" (cognate with Modern Endlish 'stead') is declined that<br>
(barring quirks) it would have come from PG *stadiz rather than<br>
*stadaz or something else. Luckily with this one, there are cognates<br>
elsewhere in Germanic which confirm this.<br>
<br>
If the word survives in Modern English, there are lots of etymological<br>
dictionaries available which will help you find cognates, including<br>
some free online [ <a href="http://www.etymonline.com/">http://www.etymonli<wbr>ne.com/</a> ]. As far as I know,<br>
teh most comprehensive English etymological dictionary is the Oxford<br>
English Dictionary [ <a href="http://www.oed.com/">http://www.oed.<wbr>com/</a> ], which can be found in<br>
libraries or consulted online if you have a subscription, or via a<br>
library or college or university that has a subscription. There are<br>
various more or less abbridged versions available at more affordable<br>
prices which are very useful. Some German dictionaries including the<br>
Grimms' Deutsches Wörterbuch [<br>
<a href="http://germazope.uni-trier.de/Projects/WBB/woerterbuecher/">http://germazope.<wbr>uni-trier.<wbr>de/Projects/<wbr>WBB/woerterbuech<wbr>er/</a> ].<br>
<br>
Good luck!<br>
<br>
LN<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span>
<!-- Start the section with Message In topic -->
<div id="ygrp-actbar">
<span class="left">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/9951;_ylc=X3oDMTM0a3ZsdGt0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzk5NjgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDdnRwYwRzdGltZQMxMjAyMzI5MTI1BHRwY0lkAzk5NTE-">
Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">18</span>)
</span>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJwNTljbHBvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzk5NjgEc2VjA2Z0cgRzbGsDcnBseQRzdGltZQMxMjAyMzI5MTI1?act=reply&messageNum=9968">
<span class="bld">
Reply </span> (via web post)
</a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlZWExYTI1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIwMjMyOTEyNQ--" class="bld">
Start a new topic </a>
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vitnav">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJldmJpMWU3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTIwMjMyOTEyNQ--">Messages</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMTJyb2E3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTIwMjMyOTEyNQ--">Members</a>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-grft">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<!-- yahoo logo -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-ft">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbDRpdWVzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjAyMzI5MTI1">
<img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmNnN2MmZmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDIzMjkxMjU-">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMGo5Y3R2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMjAyMzI5MTI1">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=">
Unsubscribe </a>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:140px;float: left; clear: none; margin-left: 5px; background:white; margin-bottom:25px ;position:absolute; top:0; right: 0;">
<!-- Network content -->
<!-- Start vitality -->
<div id="ygrp-vital">
<div id="vithd">Recent Activity</div>
<ul style="list-style-type:none; padding: 0; margin: 2px 0;">
<li style="clear: both;">
<div class="ct" style="float: right;"><span style="display:none"> </span>2</div>
<div class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZzBqN21zBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDIzMjkxMjU-">New Members</a></div>
</li>
</ul>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMnMxNjI2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTIwMjMyOTEyNQ--">
Visit Your Group </a>
</div>
<!-- Network content -->
<div id="nc">
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Ads on Yahoo!</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ofos315/M=493064.12016308.12445700.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1202336325/L=/B=MZ7LCULaX94-/J=1202329125994959/A=3848643/R=0/SIG=131q47hek/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2005&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups4&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50">Learn more now.</a></p>
<p>Reach customers</p>
<p>searching for you.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Best of Y! Groups</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13opcup77/M=493064.12016306.12445698.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1202336325/L=/B=Mp7LCULaX94-/J=1202329125994959/A=4763758/R=0/SIG=11ou7otip/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/bestofyahoogroups/">Check out the best</a></p>
<p>of what Yahoo!</p>
<p>Groups has to offer.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Yahoo! Groups</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ogf61jh/M=493064.12117566.12537396.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1202336325/L=/B=M57LCULaX94-/J=1202329125994959/A=5170411/R=0/SIG=11b8eimic/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/craftsmanhome">Home Improvement</a></p>
<p>Learn and share</p>
<p>do-it-yourself tips.</p> </div>
</div>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=9968/stime=1202329125/nc1=3848643/nc2=4763758/nc3=5170411" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mkp{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 14px 0px;
padding: 0px 14px;
}
#ygrp-mkp hr{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}
#ygrp-mkp #hd{
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: bold;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0px;
}
#ygrp-mkp #ads{
margin-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad{
padding: 0 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad a{
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
font-family: Arial;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: bold;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
#ygrp-text{
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p{
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-tpmsgs{
font-family: Arial;
clear: both;
}
#ygrp-vitnav{
padding-top: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-vitnav a{
padding: 0 1px;
}
#ygrp-actbar{
clear: both;
margin: 25px 0;
white-space:nowrap;
color: #666;
text-align: right;
}
#ygrp-actbar .left{
float: left;
white-space:nowrap;
}
.bld{font-weight:bold;}
#ygrp-grft{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
padding: 15px 0;
}
#ygrp-ft{
font-family: verdana;
font-size: 77%;
border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc{
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o{font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal{
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq{margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->