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<p>Hi,<br>
<br>
I must remark that knight is not the word used in Northgermanic.<br>
Except of Iceland also all the other Scandinavian countries use the<br>
word 'riddare'(Sw.<wbr>) and closely related words. Hence Gothic would<br>
rather be supposed to have used reidareis or similar to mark a feudal<br>
knight since Gothic lies very close to Swedish in its construction.<br>
<br>
Concerning Northgermanic the word *þegnaz is quite okey. On Swedish<br>
and Danish runestones we have þegn/thegn and a simpler state dræng.<br>
Thegn is OE thane, knight, and dræng is rather a warrior in royal<br>
service and could be related to drauthin in a way even if the top<br>
title, head of the royal guard and second in command as well was<br>
'drott'. Later 'drott' becomes cognate with prince/furste and king.<br>
<br>
Knekt(Sw.) as well is a military title in the Middle Ages for a<br>
professional warrior in subordinate position.<br>
<br>
Best<br>
Ingemar<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, Justïn <justinelf@> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > I definitely see the need for the semantic difference, but is <br>
> there a<br>
> > reason I should prefer kaballareis over knaíhts?<br>
> <br>
> Well, that's a matter of personal taste. Speaking for myself, I <br>
> wouldn't use *knaihts because:<br>
> <br>
> 1. Its "real world" cognates are not attested outside West Germanic. <br>
> That is, not only in Gothic is it unknown, which fact could be <br>
> explained by scarcity of the delivered vocabulary, but also in North <br>
> Germanic. This makes me think that the formation (kneht) was <br>
> dialectal and perhaps relatively late as well and thus impossible to <br>
> exist in Gothic even theoretically.<br>
> <br>
> 2. The basic meaning preserved in the continental languages <br>
> is "servant" rather than "knight". Yes, the semantic development <br>
> from "servant" to "(noble) warrior" was not unique with this word, <br>
> cf. OGrm. *þegnaz. But then, why not take attested magus, for <br>
> instance, and specialize it? Or to use a composite *drauhti-magus <br>
> (ON dróttmögr) – cf. attested þiu-magus "slave"?<br>
> <br>
> 3. Subjectively, I wouldn't like reconstructed Gothic to be too much <br>
> close to Modern English or any other modern language, without <br>
> sufficient reasons as it seems to be here :)<br>
> <br>
> > My first preference<br>
> > would be knaíhts because of the Germanic connotation verses a<br>
> > Romantic interference, though I am aware of the Gothic exposure to<br>
> > Romance languages via Spain, etc.<br>
> <br>
> Yes, amongst Gothic warfare terms we already have militon "to do a <br>
> military service" < Lat. militare, and annons "soldier's salary"<br>
> < Lat. annonae. These both are absent in other branches of Germanic. <br>
> And they illustrate the contacts with the Roman military <br>
> organization, long before the Goths arrived in Spain etc. The words <br>
> were there already in the 4th ct., with Visigoths residing north of <br>
> the Danube. I don't know since when caballarius started to refer <br>
> to "heavy-armored horseman" in Vulgar Latin, and where this happened <br>
> first. The Visigoths could have taken it from lingua militaris of <br>
> their Roman allies, themselves being formally a part of the Roman <br>
> army. And, curiously as it may seem, Isidor of Sevilla (570-638) <br>
> used caballarius in the meaning "stableman", if I don't mistake, and <br>
> he was a Visigoth.<br>
> <br>
> Kaballarja in the deed is a toponym. *Kaballareis could be <br>
> a "knight" quite well.<br>
> <br>
> > Would not knight [horseman] have possibly found its way to a noble<br>
> > connotation in Gothic culture theoretically? Did it finds its way<br>
> > there in any culture other than Anglo-Saxon?<br>
> <br>
> Kneht – not outside English, for all I know. "Horseman" > "knight" – <br>
> practically everywhere in West Europe.<br>
> <br>
> P.S. How about translating the wiki article "Knight" into Gothic? :)<br>
> <br>
> > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>> <br>
> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Some thoughts on Gothic knights.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > In most European languages (all except English afaik) "knight"<br>
> > > is "horseman", literally. Although the Goths didn't have knights <br>
> in<br>
> > > the proper sense of the word, they did have cavalry. The <br>
> Ostrogoths<br>
> > > are said to borrow the practice of the mounted warriorship from<br>
> > > their Hunnish and Alanic neighbors. They must have had a word <br>
> for a<br>
> > > horseman, right? Of course, they could have borrowed the item<br>
> > > together with the word for it. Not that they had never seen a man<br>
> > > riding on horseback before they contacted East European nomads. <br>
> The<br>
> > > hypothetical loan could refer to some particular kind of cavalry,<br>
> > > e.g. auxiliary Alans. The problem is we don't know the Alanic or<br>
> > > Hunnish word either. Modern Ossetic has baræg for "horseman", <br>
> but I<br>
> > > don't know if it's not a later loan from some North Caucasian<br>
> idiom.<br>
> > > Somehow it doesn't look like inherited Iranian. I'd expect<br>
> something<br>
> > > with Ir. aspa- (Oss. jæfs-) as the first element. Maybe the Goths<br>
> > > would substitute it with their IE cognate aihva-, who knows...<br>
> > ><br>
> > > To construct the word from the Germanic vocabulary, I can think <br>
> of<br>
> > > substantivized *reidands (declined like frijonds). *Reidareis<br>
> > > suggested by Llama seems OK, too, only I haven't seen -areis <br>
> added<br>
> > > to a strong verb. Which doesn't mean this was absolutely <br>
> impossible.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Finally, there's an option of "going Romance" and constructing<br>
> > > *kaballareis M.-ja, after French chevalier, Castilian caballero,<br>
> > > Italian cavaliere etc. We have Kaballarja attested (in Arezzo<br>
> deed).<br>
> > > Personally I like it best. Neo-Gothic lexicographs can load it <br>
> with<br>
> > > all that feudal semantics we associate with knights. And there <br>
> will<br>
> > > be a diffenece between "knight" (kaballareis) and "horseman"<br>
> > > (reidands) to be made.<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Ualarauans<br>
><br>
<br>
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