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<p><br>
<br>
Let me introduce myself: I'm Indian and live in Thane, Maharashtra,<br>
India. My name is Madhukar Vichare. I'm member of this<br>
<a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>> ; I had been<br>
going through the postings by Ingemer, Luke, Mike Erwin, Vladimir, T.A.<br>
Rudich, Larry Swain, Andrew Rabin, Ualarauans, Francisc, Dr. Orient<br>
Rohmer, Lama Nom, Walawulf, Sir Rugtur, LN, and perhaps many more.<br>
<br>
I observed that many words under scrutiny appear to be derived from<br>
Sanskrit, the language of Vedas conceptualized by Aryan Sages as they<br>
traveled from place to place looking for settling permanently. Gothic<br>
roots are in Norse, Swedish, Danish, German. Gothic mythology says their<br>
ancestors lived on an island Skanz, which was covered with Ice.<br>
"Skand" is Sanskrit word meaning learned man, going from place<br>
to place (in search of knowledge out of curiosity). The very word is<br>
under scrutiny in your discussions. `Scand'inavian countries<br>
have `Scand, Norse myths have Aryan stories, and so the Danish<br>
myths. Aryan early settlers moved through these landscapes as early as<br>
10,000 years BCE. Tuatan Mythology is replete with Sanskrit words and<br>
the common thread runs through the basic concepts. Languages like<br>
English, German, Spanish, Greek have Sanskrit words.<br>
<br>
I have high lighted in the topics under discussion and have made my<br>
comments; you may find my observations worth taking notice of.<br>
<br>
I will like to be in touch if you wish.<br>
<br>
Madhukar Vichare.<br>
<br>
I am so glad I found this site. I am in the process of writing a<br>
historical novel set during the reign of Constantina I. My goal is to<br>
make it as historically accurate as possible. In line with that, I know<br>
that the Goths had Reiks, which I think were similar to tribal chiefs. I<br>
know that when the Goths went to war the war-chiefs carried the title of<br>
Draughtin. My question is, did Draughtin replace Reik as the title or<br>
was it added to the title? In example: Would Reik Larry become Draughtin<br>
Larry when they went to war, or would he become Draughtin-Reik Larry,<br>
(like Governor-General) at war.<br>
Is there anyone reading these who can help?<br>
<br>
To add to Ingemer's notes: Reiks is the nominative singular; the final<br>
`s' is extremely common<br>
for Gothic masculine nouns. Reik is the accusative singular. There's a<br>
lot of speculation about Gothic political vocabulary. Wulfila offers a<br>
glimpse of this, but he's one author, with one<br>
subject, and we don't have the rest. Reiks may be a catch-all, so that<br>
anyone with political power,<br>
whether commander, chieftain or king, would be a reiks. *Drauhtins is an<br>
unattested speculative form, based on drauhtinon, gadrauhts, etc. A<br>
householder might be an andbahts. A subordinate commander might be a<br>
[unit size]-fažs, e.g. žiusundifažs, hundafažs, etc.<br>
possibly<br>
*hansafažs as well, or even *aihvafažs and *fotufažs.<br>
<br>
I am not a linguist but as far as I know they were reiks also when<br>
leading a war expedition. Their sacral king, however, was never allowed<br>
to leave his own territory when the people was permanently settled, but<br>
had to order a reiks to take command. During the wandering, according to<br>
Getica at least, the žiušans was sacral king and he used 'kings of<br>
the army' to lead parts of the united army (like e.g. Cniva as Wolfram<br>
suggests) but I do not know their title in Gothic. Later, after the<br>
split between Greutungi/Ostrogoth<wbr>s and Vesi/Tervingi the Ostrogothic<br>
king seems to have behaved like anodinistic king while the Vesi had a<br>
kindins, family-leader or clan-chief, executing the functions of a<br>
sacral king. The Ostrogothic king accordingly seems to have been a reiks<br>
continously and from Alaric also the Visgothic king was a reiks, but<br>
within Gutžiuša the tribal chiefs were reiks/kunigaz and so was<br>
the kindins (for his own tribe only). Draughtin, Sw. drott, normally is<br>
the second in command to the king, he is an earl/jarl, but drott may as<br>
well be used to<br>
mean a king, a ruler. I never, however, saw this title in connection<br>
with an Eastgermanic people. Accordingly I dare not say if it ever was<br>
used with the Goths. The classical authors use dux when describing the<br>
leaders just below the king.<br>
<br>
In the Gothic Bible, 'žiudans' is used of a king who goes to war:<br>
<br>
aižžau hvas žiudans gaggands stigqan wižra anžarana<br>
žiudan (vipra prÄį¹a-yukta piį¹įøa) du wiganna, niu<br>
gasitands fauržis žankeiž, siaiu mahteigs miž taihun<br>
žusundjom gamotjan žamma miž twaim tigum žusundjo gaggandin<br>
ana sik?<br>
<br>
Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down<br>
first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him<br>
that cometh against him with twenty thousand?<br>
Luke 14:31.<br>
<br>
'frauja' (PrÄį¹Äįø„) "lord" is also used with no Greek model<br>
for the noun in a military context (II Tim 2:4). I'm not sure whether<br>
'reiks' is used anywhere in an explicitly military context.<br>
<br>
I am not a linguist but as far as I know they were reiks also when<br>
leading a war expedition. Their sacral king, however, was never allowed<br>
to leave his own territory when the people was permanently settled, but<br>
had to order a reiks (į¹į¹£Ä«s wandering Sages) to take<br>
command. During the wandering, according to Getica at least, the<br>
žiušans was sacral king and he used 'kings of the army' to lead<br>
parts of the united army (like e.g. Cniva as Wolfram suggests) but I do<br>
not know their title in Gothic. Later, after the split between<br>
Greutungi/Ostrogoth s and Vesi/Tervingi the Ostrogothic king seems to<br>
have behaved like an odinistic king while the Vesi had a kindins,<br>
family-leader or<br>
clan-chief, executing the functions of a sacral king.The Ostrogothic<br>
king accordingly seems to have been a reiks continously and from Alaric<br>
also the Visgothic king was a reiks, but within Gutžiuša the<br>
tribal chiefs were reiks/kunigaz and so was the kindins (for his own<br>
tribe only). Draughtin, Sw. drott, normally is the second in command to<br>
the king, he is an earl/jarl, but drott may as well be used to mean a<br>
king, a ruler. I never, however, saw this title in connection with an<br>
Eastgermanic people. Accordingly I dare not say if it ever was used with<br>
the Goths. The classical authors use dux when describing the leaders<br>
just below the king.<br>
<br>
I am so glad I found this site. I am in the process of writing a<br>
historical novel set during the reign of Constantina I. My goal is to<br>
make it as historically accurate as possible. In line with that, I know<br>
that the Goths had Reiks (Sanskrit-riktha that comes as<br>
inheritance; in war they are inexperienced)<wbr>, which I think were similar<br>
to tribal chiefs. I know that when the Goths went to war the war-chiefs<br>
carried the title of Draughtin (Sanskrit- daishik- local leader or<br>
adviser). My question is, did Draughtin replace Reik as the title or was<br>
it added to the title? In example: Would Reik Larry become Draughtin<br>
Larry when they went to war, or would he become Draughtin-Reik Larry,<br>
(like Governor-General) at war.<br>
<br>
Ek hlewagastir holtijar horna tawido written in the old futhark<br>
(Pruthak- pruthak Atman-different, dissimilar), is more than just a<br>
name, a magical inscription or a few words, almost a sentence in my<br>
opinion ;-) Best. I wrote "short inscriptions" , not "general texts". As<br>
I know, the old Futhark was used in general (not only by the Goths, but<br>
also by other Germanic peoples) only for such short inscriptions (1 or<br>
several words) on different items.<br>
<br>
You are quite right. The old Futhark has only names and magical words.<br>
The full futhark is found in Stånga, Gotland as part of a grave end<br>
4th century. The only other word on this stone is SUEUS which is an<br>
palindrom.<br>
<br>
The runic (Puranic) inscriptiones on gothic weapeones, necklesses and<br>
gravestones only proofs that the Goth tribes new the Runes as magickal<br>
"alphabet" but not that they have used it for writing general texts.<br>
Usually Runes were taboo for such uses, or does someone know of the<br>
existence of texts, written only in runic symbols?<br>
<br>
The anthropological analysis allows us to speak on belonging of<br>
Chernyakhov culture's population to the great Caucasoid race and its<br>
significant heterogeneity. The represented anthropological types belong<br>
to both the northern and southern circles of the Caucasoid. The<br>
population in each region had a complicated anthropological structure,<br>
with diverse genetic lines fixed. Some of the lines were associated with<br>
the aborigine population, others - with migrants from the central<br>
and northeast areas of Europe. Despite the mentioned heterogeneity, it<br>
is possible to select, for each region, dominating morphological types<br>
that show different directions of the anthropological links.<br>
<br>
The Chernyakhov population of the west Ukraine exposes significant<br>
nearness to population of the Maslomench group of the Wielbark culture<br>
in Poland. This applies to both men and women though they have a<br>
different dominating base. The male type (dolichocranic and hypermorphic<br>
with small faces) may originate from the Celtic environment. The sources<br>
for the female type (mesocranial with medium wide faces) are difficult<br>
to reveal, but it is relevant, in the historic perspective, to medieval<br>
west Slavonic groups.<br>
<br>
I think he just took the word already existent and changed its meaning.<br>
Adding the suffix sl was not his way of forming new words afaik. It<br>
is generally believed that skoh-sl is derived from PIE<br>
*(s)kek- "to jump", "to move quickly (= to run)", {Sanskrit <br>
skandaha means a jump, it also means some disease of children, skandanam<br>
means going away}, "to shiver" (#922 in Pokorny). G. Köbler offers<br>
the same etymology. Cf. also OSlav. skakati "to jump". Looks like Go.<br>
skohsl could originally pertain to persons suffering from a certain<br>
mental desease, very reminiscent of Old Irish geilt {Sanskrit close<br>
words are girikaha, a hill, gir language, girvaani Sanskrit<br>
language; ancient sages preferred to meditate in the wood}and related<br>
mythological motifs of "The Wild Man in the Wood". No wonder Wulfila<br>
picked up this term to refer to those possessed by the devils (Mt. 8:31)<br>
and *running* from the tombs (us hlaiwasnom rinnandans). In the semantic<br>
field, this word came down into Old Norse as 'skógi', or 'forest'.<br>
Very implausible. Theoretically, it could be vice versa. *Skōgaz<br>
*skōh-sla, that is. "Wood thing" > "wood dweller" = "one banished<br>
from the community and living in the periphery", "outlaw". Cf. ON vargr<br>
= heišingi < *heiš-gengi, "heath-walker" , i.e. "one who dwells<br>
in the wasteland". (The meanings do chage).<br>
<br>
Perhaps it was thought that 'things', spirits and so forth, living in<br>
the forest were to be avoided, not sure. Forest was thought of as a<br>
dangerous place to go, no doubt. <br>
Ualarauans<br>
<br>
In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com<br>
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</a>> , "llama_nom" <600cell@... > wrote: and various Slavic names for<br>
spirits with the element -kus-, -kuz-, -kud-, as well as the Slavic verb<br>
'skakati' "to jump".<br>
Interestingly, Slav. kusiti "to bite" comes from Go. kausjan "to test".<br>
Walawulf!<br>
<br>
I can't see what direct etymological connection there could be between<br>
O.N. 'skyrsi' and Go. 'skohsl'. If there is any kinship, perhaps it's<br>
just shared sound symbolism [<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia">http://en.wikipedia</a> .org/wiki/ Sound_symbolism<br>
<<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_symbolism">http://en.wikipedia<wbr>.org/wiki/<wbr>Sound_symbolism</a>> ]. Grimm also mentions<br>
O.N. 'skass' = 'skars' "witch, troll". And compare O.E. 'sceocca',<br>
'scucca' "devil, monster" (Modern English 'shuck'), and derivatives of<br>
O.E. 'scķn-' with connotations of magic, illusion, phantoms.<br>
<br>
But maybe such names for frightening beings were liable to unusual<br>
changes if people had a superstitious fear of using what they felt was<br>
the thing's true name in case that attracted its attention; euphemistic<br>
names were certainly used of dangerous animals such as wolves.<br>
Diefenbach mentions Swedish wood spirits called 'skogsnerte' and<br>
'skogsnufva' , and various Slavic names for spirits with the element<br>
-kus-, -kuz-, -kud-, as well as the Slavic verb 'skakati' "to jump".<br>
(Skanda Scandinavia)<wbr>.<br>
<br>
In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com<br>
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</a>> , Valulfr_Vaerulsson@ ... wrote: Hails Ualarauans, Thanks for clearing<br>
that up, I think I picked up the association from Grimm. After looking<br>
into this further I found this from the Cleasby-Vigfusson O.Ice.<br>
dictionary - SKYRSI, n. [akin to Ulf. skohsl; Germ. scheusal] :-- a<br>
portent, phantasm, as also mischance arising from witchery; žeir<br>
žóttusk nįliga brenna ok óttušusk žann atburš sem<br>
skussi (= skyrsi), as a bad omen,..... Walawulfs.<br>
<br>
Quoting ualarauans <ualarauans@ ... In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com<br>
<<a href="http://in.mc946.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">http://in.mc946.<wbr>mail.yahoo.<wbr>com/mc/compose?<wbr>to=gothic-<wbr>l%40yahoogroups.<wbr>com\<br>
</a>> , "Valulfr Vaerulsson"<br>
<Valulfr_Vaerulsson @> wrote: I have a question about the etymology of<br>
the word 'skohsl', is this a word Ulfilas made up to denote 'a demon',<br>
and if not, where does it derive? I think he just took the word already<br>
existent and changed its meaning. Adding the suffix sl was not his<br>
way of forming new words afaik. It is generally believed that skoh-sl is<br>
derived from PIE *(s)kek- "to jump", "to move quickly (= to run)", "to<br>
shiver" (#922 in Pokorny). G. Köbler offers the same etymology. Cf.<br>
also O. Slav. skakati "to jump". Looks like Go. skohsl could originally<br>
pertain to persons suffering from a certain mental desease, very<br>
reminiscent of OIrish geilt and related mythological motifs of "The Wild<br>
Man in the Wood". No wonder Wulfila picked up this term to refer to<br>
those possessed by the devils (Mt. 8:31) and *running* from the tombs<br>
(us hlaiwasnom rinnandans). In the semantic field, this word came down<br>
into Old Norse as 'skógi', or 'forest'. Very implausible.<br>
Theoretically, it could be vice versa. *Skōgaz *skōh-sla, that is.<br>
"Wood thing" "wood dweller" = "one banished from the community and<br>
living in the periphery", "outlaw". Cf. ON vargr = heišingi<br>
*heiš-gengi, "heath-walker" , i.e. "one who dwells in the wasteland".<br>
<br>
Is there any way we would reconstruct the term "knight" or is that just<br>
too chronologically irresponsible?<br>
<br>
Hail Rutgur and Ingemar,<br>
<br>
There is also the 'drauhtin' (Sanskrit drudha means rigid, steady,<br>
steadfast, dhrudhavedhin sharp bowman) or 'war-lord'. I'm not sure what<br>
exactly the function was on the battle field, but I do that the word<br>
came down into Old Norse as 'drótt' meaning the 'warrior-band' , and<br>
'dróttinn' (Sanskrit drushtin means expert, meditating) as<br>
war-lord, and eventually as 'Lord' or 'God' in a Christian sense.<br>
Walawulf<br>
<br>
Quoting Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar@nordgren. se<br>
<<a href="http://in.mc946.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=ingemar%40nordgren.se">http://in.mc946.<wbr>mail.yahoo.<wbr>com/mc/compose?<wbr>to=ingemar%<wbr>40nordgren.<wbr>se</a>> >:<br>
In gothic-l@yahoogroup s.com<br>
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</a>> , "Sir Rutgur" <rutgur@...> wrote:<br>
<br>
Did the Goths have particular word their Warrior Class? .for the<br>
Leadership for their Warrior Class? I'm wondering if they had a<br>
functionally equivalent word for "knight", at least as it relates to<br>
warfare & the army.<br>
<br>
Hi Rutgur, An employed fighter/warrior (cf. German 'Knecht', Sw.<br>
'knekt') is called 'skalks'. (Sanskrit skhalit suggests angry,<br>
attack, also guerrilla warfare). This, however, is in a household and if<br>
it has a bearing for army titles I do not know. Ingemar<br>
<br>
The West Germanic forms point to Proto-Germanic *knehtaz, which would<br>
give Gothic *knaķhts. Icelandic uses a different word, 'riddari', a<br>
loan from North German (cognate with Modern High German 'Ritter'<br>
"knight", literally "rider"). The word is said to have been introduced<br>
into Norway as a title in 1277, but Einarr Skślason's poem Geisli<br>
from the middle of the 12th century contains a related loanword,<br>
'rķšari' "knight" (cognate with English 'rider' and Modern High<br>
German 'Reiter' "rider"). This could be back-engineered into Gothic as<br>
*reidareis. I haven't read all of this discussion, so appologies if I'm<br>
repeating what's already been suggested, but a more ancient alternative<br>
with similar connotations of warrior-hood and service is Proto-Germanic<br>
*žegnaz (with cognates attested in Old Norse, Old English, Old Saxon<br>
and Old High German alliterative poetry), whence English 'thane'. This<br>
would give Gothic 'žigns'. Lama Nom<br>
<br>
So, where does Knight and Knecht come from? Can you trace those sources<br>
and backwords construct it using Proto-Germanic and predicting > what<br>
the change would have been, if the Goths followed the same etymological<br>
patterns.... etc.? Does Icelandic use a "knight" cognate or another<br>
word/compound word altogether? Granted, there's no way of assuming that<br>
had the Goths survived to establish feudalism; they would have used a<br>
word that remotely related to "Knight," but hypothetically speaking...<br>
After all, it really depends on how much the person asking really wants<br>
to honour chronology. If it were up to me Gothic would be reconstructed<br>
in its entirety and there'd be neologisms for SUVs and iPods.<br>
<br>
It didn't "come down", strictly spoken. It was inherited both by ON and<br>
Gothic from PGrm. The Gothic form (*drauhtins, that is) is not attested.<br>
Ualarauans<br>
<br>
Skalks is actually a slave (most often = Gr. DOULOS, also OIKETHS<br>
"domestic servant", PAIDARION "slave child"). (Sanskrit "skanna<br>
means one who is outcast, because he does not follow the norms of the<br>
society). Cf. also ga-skalki SUNDOULOS "Mitknecht" it's neuter on<br>
ja, looks more like a word for a thing, not for a living person. I<br>
don't think a Gothic warrior would be happy with these names for himself<br>
:) Still, you may use it if you mentally place your Goths into the High<br>
Middle Age, with its knights, heralds, noble ladies etc. Unfortunately,<br>
the historical Goths didn't live so long to develop a feudal terminology<br>
of their own. Words of their language pertain to realities of a<br>
different time. It's "master and slave", not "suzerain and vassal" which<br>
dominated the social landscape in the classic society and which is<br>
reflected in the language of the Gothic Bible. Some other Old Germanic<br>
translations, less dependent on the original text, were making use of<br>
the Germanic social terminology. That's why you can occasionally find<br>
Jesus depicted as a Germanic warlord and the disciples as his<br>
"optimates" (guardsmen), e.g. OHG druhtin and the gana in Otfrid von<br>
Weissenburg' s Evangelienbuch. In Gothic, these were *drauhtins and<br>
gadrauhts (pl. gadrauhteis) respectively. For the latter, you can also<br>
opt for reconstructed poeticisms (based on<br>
ON): *drauhtimagus, *drauhtiguma and the like. *drauhtifažs(<wbr>Gen.<br>
-fadis) for *drauhtins seems also possible.<br>
<br>
In a few written sources of the Migration period the Latinized word<br>
sculca (Gr. SKOULKA) is used for some kind of military service. It might<br>
be cognate to skalks, although there's a Latin etymology (from<br>
exculcare).<br>
<br>
An employed fighter/warrior (cf. German 'Knecht', Sw. 'knekt') is called<br>
'skalks'. This, however, is in a household and if it has a bearing for<br>
army titles I do not know.<br>
<br>
Did the Goths have particular word their Warrior Class? .for the<br>
Leadership for their Warrior Class? I'm wondering if they had a<br>
functionally equivalent word for "knight", at least as it relates to<br>
warfare & the army. I suppose western Goths - in Spain, Aquitaine or<br>
Italy - going into the High Middle Ages might use the terms<br>
interchangeably - but eastern Goths - in the Balkans and especially in<br>
Ukraine - would need to distinguish between light cavalry, heavy<br>
cavalry, and the nobility.<br>
<br>
Fourth-century Goths probably wouldn't associate mounted fighting with<br>
much greater status than dismounted fighting. Sixth-century Goths would;<br>
Gothic heavy cavalry appears to have expanded its importance in the<br>
fifth century just as Roman heavy cavalry did. I'd suggest either<br>
*kaballareis or *katafraktareis for the heavy cavalry in the sixth<br>
century. (karbara or karbura, means wild man, and karmanyabhuj means a<br>
person hired for work. These are nearest equivalents)<wbr>.<br>
<br>
On Feb 6, 2008, at 2:27 PM, llama_nom wrote: Another possibility would<br>
be to invent a Gothic *aihva-raida- manna (In Sanskrit reta means<br>
bastard child and raita means child having qualities of demon) to match<br>
Old English 'éoredmann'. I'm thinking of Tom Shippey's comments<br>
in The Road to Middle Earth about the survival in Old English of this<br>
old word 'éored' for cavalry in spite of the lack of such a fighting<br>
force among the Anglo-Saxons, perhaps harking back to traditions of<br>
cavalry warfare as practiced by the Goths. But that's a bit of a<br>
mouthful... I think my favourite so far is *kaballareis, for the reasons<br>
Ualarauan's has suggested. It seems very credible alongside the other<br>
Latin military vocabulary. We could still used *reidands "rider" as<br>
synonym for knight where the context makes it clear.<br>
LN<br>
<br>
Okay, I'm very excited about trying this out, but bear in mind I have<br>
NEVER reconstructed before and will likely embarrass myself. Could you<br>
give me a word to reconstruct using those sources [and<br>
Bennett's text] and I will do my best...you would be able to critique my<br>
attempt and provide feedback I would certainly not be able to get<br>
outside of this group. Just tell me a simple word in English and I will<br>
attempt to reconstruct it--preferably a word I will be able to find in<br>
Old Norse/Old English, etc.<br>
<br>
That was an awesome answer Lama, I actually have an obnoxious question<br>
the likes of which you would expect from an amateur Gothic enthusiast<br>
who's only had one 4000 level course in linguistics: How can I learn to<br>
do that? I want to be able to derive my own reconstructions from<br>
Proto-Germanic and back engineer my own words. If I could do that, I<br>
would post list after list of neologisms for scholarly criticisms until<br>
we had a veritable dictionary of Gothic words and phrases. Granted, this<br>
may be coming out of young-blood fervor but I am certainly interested in<br>
the back-engineering. Are there any pre-established guides and resources<br>
to these Gothic patterns, and which Proto-Germanic source are you using<br>
and where can I get one?<br>
<br>
Are we all using the same source for Proto-Germanic or is this in and of<br>
itself a highly debated issue of favouring this or that resource? There<br>
are plenty of uncertainties in Proto-Germanic vocabulary! Generally<br>
speaking, the sound change rules are regular, but language being a human<br>
thing, quirks creeps in. For example, a word which is attested in more<br>
than one branch of Germanic may follow different declensions in the<br>
different dialects, so you could reconstruct the same Proto-Germanic<br>
root from each, but different endings. There's a lot of that sort of<br>
thing. Even if we knew everything about the history of the language, we<br>
probably still wouldn't be able to point to a single community of<br>
Proto-Germanic speakers speaking a perfectly uniform language; it's a<br>
scholarly idealisation. To reconstruct a Proto-Germanic word from a<br>
Gothic one, or the other way around, you need to know all the relevant<br>
sound changes that might affect the sounds in the word between Gothic<br>
and PG.<br>
<br>
If you have a word in say Old Norse and you want to reconstruct a Gothic<br>
cognate, you need to know all the relevant sound changes that would have<br>
affected the sounds in the word in its evolution from PG to ON, as well<br>
as the Gothic sound changes. For this, a good starting point in English<br>
is Gordon's Introduction to Old Norse. In German, there's Adolf Noreen's<br>
Altisländische und altnorwegische Grammatik.<br>
<br>
**Very often, distinctions of sounds in PG have been lost in later<br>
Germanic languages, so it's not always clear how to reconstruct a word<br>
that's only recorded in one or two dialects. For example, /e/ in Old<br>
English sometimes comes from PG /e/, sometimes /i/, sometimes /a/. Which<br>
it was in PG depends on what vowel came in the following syllable; but<br>
often this vowel will have been lost or reduced in Old English, in which<br>
case you need to find cognates in other Germanic languages to<br>
triangulate by. Likewise /o:/ in Old Norse might be from PG /o:/<br>
(fór) or /ah/ (nótt) or /unh/ (žótti), etc. So again, you can<br>
only tell which if the same word is recorded in a dialect that did keep<br>
the distinction that Old Norse lost. Sometimes the Proto-Germanic form,<br>
supposing the word really is from PG, is clear from just one dialect;<br>
sometimes you need two or more to calibrate, using each to make up for<br>
the deficiencies of the others. Sometimes you even need to look further<br>
a field at cognates in other Indo-European languages.<br>
<br>
It can also help to know a bit about the grammar of the various early<br>
Germanic languages. Sometimes it's possible to deduce what inflectional<br>
vowels would have probably been in PG from the way a word is declined in<br>
one of the later languages, even if the vowel itself has been lost; e.g.<br>
you can tell from the way Old Norse 'stašr' "place" (cognate with<br>
Modern Endlish 'stead') is declined that (barring quirks) it would have<br>
come from PG *stadiz rather than *stadaz or something else. Luckily with<br>
this one, there are cognates elsewhere in Germanic which confirm this.<br>
<br>
For example, a word which is attested in more than one branch of<br>
Germanic may follow different<br>
declensions in the different dialects, so you could reconstruct the same<br>
Proto-Germanic root from each, but different endings. There's a lot of<br>
that sort of thing. Even if we knew everything about the<br>
history of the language, we probably still wouldn't be able to point to<br>
a single community of Proto-Germanic speakers speaking a perfectly<br>
uniform language; it's a scholarly idealisation. To reconstruct a<br>
Proto-Germanic word from a Gothic one, or the other way around, you need<br>
to know all the relevant sound changes that might affect the sounds in<br>
the word between Gothic and PG.<br>
<br>
Hypothetical loan could refer to some particular kind of cavalry, e.g.<br>
auxiliary Alans. The problem is we don't know the Alanic or Hunnish word<br>
either. Modern Ossetic has baręg for "horseman", but I don't know if<br>
it's not a later loan from some North Caucasian idiom. Somehow it<br>
doesn't look like inherited Iranian. Never trust your eyes! I was just<br>
told by people competent in this stuff that Oss. baręg IS inherited.<br>
Namely it comes from *bāraka-, common to all Northeast Iranian<br>
dialects. In the Migration period Alanic it was probably already<br>
*bāraga. The latter could be borrowed into Gothic as *baraga M.-an.<br>
Hypothetical semantics (that's absolutely arbitrary): "(Alanic) mounted<br>
warrior". Ualarauans<br>
<br>
I must remark that knight is not the word used in North Germanic. Except<br>
of Iceland also all the other Scandinavian countries use the word<br>
'riddare'(Sw.<wbr>) and closely related words. Hence Gothic would rather be<br>
supposed to have used reidareis or similar to mark a feudal knight since<br>
Gothic lies very close to Swedish in its construction. Concerning North<br>
Germanic the word *žegnaz is quite okay. On Swedish and Danish<br>
runestones we have žegn/thegn and a simpler state dręng. Thegn is<br>
OE thane, knight, and dręng is rather a warrior in royal service and<br>
could be related to drauthin in a way even if the top title, head of the<br>
royal guard and second in command as well was 'drott'. Later 'drott'<br>
becomes cognate with prince/furste and king.<br>
<br>
Its "real world" cognates are not attested outside West Germanic. That<br>
is, not only in Gothic is it unknown, which fact could be explained by<br>
scarcity of the delivered vocabulary, but also in North<br>
> Germanic. This makes me think that the formation (kneht) was dialectal<br>
and perhaps relatively late as well and thus impossible to exist in<br>
Gothic even theoretically. 2. The basic meaning preserved in the<br>
continental languages is "servant" rather than "knight". Yes, the<br>
semantic development from "servant" to "(noble) warrior" was not unique<br>
with this word, cf. OGrm. *žegnaz. But then, why not take attested<br>
magus, for instance, and specialize it? Or to use a composite<br>
*drauhti-magus (ON dróttmögr) cf. attested žiu-magus<br>
"slave"? 3. Subjectively, I wouldn't like reconstructed Gothic to be too<br>
much close to Modern English or any other modern language, without<br>
sufficient reasons as it seems to be here.<br>
<br>
My first preference would be knaķhts because of the Germanic<br>
connotation verses a Romantic interference, though I am aware of the<br>
Gothic exposure to Romance languages via Spain, etc. Yes, amongst Gothic<br>
warfare terms we already have militon "to do a military service" < Lat.<br>
militare, and annons "soldier's salary" Lat. annonae. These both are<br>
absent in other branches of Germanic.<br>
And they illustrate the contacts with the Roman military organization,<br>
long before the Goths arrived in Spain etc. The words were there already<br>
in the 4th ct., with Visigoths residing north of the Danube. I don't<br>
know since when caballarius started to refer to "heavy-armored horseman"<br>
in Vulgar Latin, and where this happened first. The Visigoths could have<br>
taken it from lingua militaris of their Roman allies, themselves being<br>
formally a part of the Roman army. And, curiously as it may seem, Isidor<br>
of Sevilla (570-638) used caballarius in the meaning "stableman", if I<br>
don't mistake, and he was a Visigoth.<br>
<br>
Kaballarja in the deed is a toponym. *Kaballareis could be a "knight"<br>
quite well. Would not knight [horseman] have possibly found its way to a<br>
noble connotation in Gothic culture theoretically? Did it finds its way<br>
there in any culture other than Anglo-Saxon? Kneht not outside<br>
English, for all I know. "Horseman" > "knight" practically<br>
everywhere in West Europe.<br>
<br>
Some thoughts on Gothic knights. In most European languages (all except<br>
English afaik) "knight"<br>
is "horseman", literally. Although the Goths didn't have knights in the<br>
proper sense of the word, they did have cavalry. The OstroGoths<br>
(Sanskrit those who used advanced weapons "Astra")<br>
are said to borrow the practice of the mounted warrior-ship from their<br>
Hunnish and Alanic neighbors. They must have had a word for a horseman,<br>
right? Of course, they could have borrowed the item together with the<br>
word for it. Not that they had never seen a man riding on horseback<br>
before they contacted East European nomads. The hypothetical loan could<br>
refer to some particular kind of cavalry, e.g. auxiliary Alans. The<br>
problem is we don't know the Alanic or Hunnish word either. Modern<br>
Ossetic has baręg for "horseman", but I don't know if it's not a<br>
later loan from some North Caucasian idiom. Somehow it doesn't look like<br>
inherited Iranian. I'd expect<br>
something with Ir. aspa- (Oss. jęfs-) as the first element. Maybe the<br>
Goths would substitute it with their IE cognate aihva- aiva or iva, who<br>
knows. To construct the word from the Germanic vocabulary, I can think<br>
of substantivized *reidands (declined like frijonds). *Reidareis<br>
suggested by Llama seems OK, too, only I haven't seen -areis added to a<br>
strong verb. Which doesn't mean this was absolutely impossible.<br>
<br>
I definitely see the need for the semantic difference, but is there a<br>
reason I should prefer kaballareis over knaķhts? My first preference<br>
would be knaķhts because of the Germanic connotation verses a<br>
Romantic interference, though I am aware of the Gothic exposure to<br>
Romance languages via Spain, etc. Would not knight [horseman] have<br>
possibly found its way to a noble connotation in Gothic culture<br>
theoretically? Did it finds its way there in any culture other than<br>
Anglo-Saxon?<br>
<br>
Finally, there's an option of "going Romance" and constructing<br>
*kaballareis M.-ja, after French chevalier, Castilian caballero, Italian<br>
cavaliere etc. We have Kaballarja attested (in Arezzo deed).<br>
Personally I like it best. Neo-Gothic lexicographs can load it with all<br>
that feudal semantics we associate with knights. And there will be a<br>
diffenece between "knight" (kaballareis) and "horseman"<br>
(reidands) to be made. <br>
Ualarauans<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, Justļn <justinelf@.<wbr>..> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Is number 2. not triu? I stumbled across it in the Wright link<br>
> actually, but I may be mistaken. Would 6. be aul? This is really<br>
> embarrassing.<wbr>..I'm working on the rest, at work right now so far away<br>
> from my Bennett text...<br>
><br>
> Again, this is my first attempt, so as embarrassing as it is<br>
> hopefully I'll learn...<br>
><br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" 600cell@ wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Clue for Number 6: see Wright § 151.<br>
> ><br>
> > <a href="http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/goth_wright/b0071.png">http://lexicon.<wbr>ff.cuni.cz/<wbr>png/goth_<wbr>wright/b0071.<wbr>png</a><br>
> > <a href="http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/png/goth_wright/b0072.png">http://lexicon.<wbr>ff.cuni.cz/<wbr>png/goth_<wbr>wright/b0072.<wbr>png</a><br>
> ><br>
> > Clue for Number 4: compare the Modern English verb 'to lay' and<br>
> cognates.<br>
> ><br>
> > > 1. bath<br>
> > > 2. wood<br>
> > > 3. dwarf<br>
> > > 4. edge<br>
> > > 5. elbow<br>
> > > 6. owl<br>
> ><br>
><br>
<br>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
<br>
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background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc{
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o{font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal{
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq{margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->