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<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@<wbr>...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" <600cell@> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > Old English turns the -tig of the cardinal decades into -tigoþa for<br>
> > the ordinals: twéntigoþa, þrittigoþa, féowertigoþa, fíftigoþa, ...,<br>
> > hundtéontiogoþ<wbr>a. When combined with a unit, either the decade or <br>
> the<br>
> > unit, there are two possibilities: twá and twenigoþa; óþer éac<br>
> > twentigum. Old High German has: zweinzugôsto, drîzugôsto, ...,<br>
> > zehanzugôsto. Units are added without a conjunction: niunzugôsto<br>
> > fiordo. Old Norse adds the suffix -andi: tuttugandi, þrítugandi,<br>
> > fertugandi, fimmtugandi, ... The ordinals of 100 and 1000 aren't<br>
> > recorded in Old Norse, but Modern Icelandic has: hundraðasti,<br>
> > þúsundasti. It turns both decades and units into ordinals and <br>
> places<br>
> > them either way round: tuttugandi ok fyrstr, fyrstr ok tuttugandi.<br>
> > <br>
> > Which gives us a few possibilities for Gothic. Maybe we should <br>
> avoid<br>
> > working backwards from Old Norse -gandi on the assumption that this<br>
> > could be a later form created by analogy with the teens. -da is<br>
> > attested as an ordinal suffix in Gothic, so we could reconstruct<br>
> > *-tiguþa (with devoicing of /d/ to /þ/ according to the usual rule <br>
> of<br>
> > dissimilation)<wbr>, or possibly *-tiguda (with restoration of /d/ by<br>
> > analogy). Or, on the basis of Old High German, we could reconstruct<br>
> > *-tugosta.<br>
> > <br>
> > *twai-tiguþa<br>
> > *twai-tigosta<br>
> <br>
> OE twén- and OHG zwein- seem to suggest some weird form of "two". <br>
> Maybe, Go. *twaina-? Or *twi- like in ON? And why the geminated -tt- <br>
> (tuttugu)? Couldn't it be in Gothic (*twittigosta)<wbr>?<br>
<br>
The gemination in Old Norse *could* come from the loss of a nasal<br>
preceding the -t-. I'm not sure if it does in this case though. Maybe<br>
I was too hasty to dismiss the possibility of -anda- in Gothic?<br>
According to the OED, "the first element [of English 'twenty'] is<br>
variously explained as a nom. plur. (OE. twégen) and as a dative<br>
form." More specifically the regular masculine nominative plural, OE<br>
twégen, bégen = Go. twai, bai. If it is a nominative plural, then<br>
presumably we want Gothic twai-. I hadn't though of dative till now,<br>
but that would give us twaim-tiguþa, or twaim-tigosta, etc. and<br>
þrim-tiguþa, etc. after which the units stop being marked for case and<br>
we can relax! (Compare Old Norse compounds like hugum-stórr) But<br>
against this theory is the fact that there's no sign of a dative<br>
ending in thirty. But then, since twai- would be transparently<br>
nominative in Gothic, presumably it would change case according to<br>
context. Using the prefic twi- is tempting, and would also remove a<br>
lot of our dilemmas. And it is attested elsewhere in Gothic.<br>
<br>
> What about "three" in "thirty"? *þreitigosta (like OHG) or <br>
> *þrittigoda (like OE)?<br>
<br>
The gemination in OE (and shortening of the vowel) is a later<br>
development. Earlier OE has þrítig.<br>
<br>
> Looks like there was no pan-Germanic archetyp for ordinals over 19, <br>
> right?<br>
<br>
Right. Hence the racking of our poor brains!<br>
<br>
> <br>
> > Alternatively it might be better to dodge the issue of suffixes and<br>
> > reconstructions and just assume that the word for decade remained a<br>
> > noun still in Gothic, as with ordinals: anþar tigus, þridja <br>
> tigus, ...<br>
> > etc. Compare the Old Norse idiom: hálfr þriði tøgr manna "25 men"<br>
> > (literally "half [of] the third decade of men); hálft annat hundrat<br>
> > "150" (literally "half [of] the second hundred).<br>
> <br>
> In which case we'd say sa aiws twaddje tigiwe hunde aþne usliþanaize <br>
> fram X''au gabauranamma? Reminds me of the speech of the Maya shaman <br>
> in Apocalypto :) The year 2008 – þata anþarþûsundjosto jah ahtudo <br>
> jer aldais X''aus? Or, alternatively, "twos þûsundjos jere jah nauh <br>
> ahtau usliþana waurþun und hita fram jainai naht in Nazaraiþ, <br>
> jah ... (you tell what happens in 2008)" :)<br>
<br>
That Icelandic idiom also ties in with the way Icelandic and German<br>
anticipate the next hour in giving clock times, unlike<br>
backwards-looking English: hálfníu = halb neun = half eight. I wonder<br>
how many working hours have been lost due to that little quirk, or<br>
duellists lives saved ;-)<br>
<br>
LN<br>
<br>
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