<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body style="background-color: #ffffff;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 490px; padding: 0 15px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "Lombard" <manielombard@<wbr>...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I actually meant: "faura Xristáus gabáurŝái; afar Xristáus <br>
gabáurŝ!"<br>
<br>
That's OK grammatically.<br>
<br>
> > faura Xristau gabauranamma and afar Xristu gabauranana <br>
respectively. Actually<br>
> this is a calque from Latin (post aliquem natum "after smbd. was <br>
born"), I don't<br>
> know if it was acceptable to say so in genuine Gothic. The accent <br>
on birth may<br>
> be appropriate since we count years from this precise date (be it <br>
real or<br>
> artificially set later), not from "Christ's time" in general.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> I don't seem to understand your calque from Latin though (((<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> So "faura Xristau gabauranamma" literally means "before Christ, a <br>
born one,<br>
> before (a) born Christ"?<br>
<br>
Yes, the latter, literally. Queer as it may seem to us, this was the <br>
way the Romans said it. And I think that Gothic with its syntax <br>
heavily depending on classical models could utilize this one, too.<br>
<br>
> faura + dat<br>
> <br>
> Xristus (dat. Xristáu)<br>
> <br>
> past participle gabaurans (strong dat gabauranamma < infinitive <br>
gabauran? i. e.<br>
> a form of baíran expressing the passive ?)<br>
<br>
Yes, gabaurans is past participle, the infinitive being gabairan "to <br>
give birth". There's no passive infinitive in Gothic, only finite <br>
forms, synthetic in presence (gabairada "I/he/she/it is born") and <br>
analytical in preterite (gabaurans was/warŝ "I/he/she/it was born").<br>
<br>
> Why not faura Xristáu ŝamma gabáuranim?<br>
<br>
ŝamma gabauranin? Hmm... Wouldn't this imply that besides the born <br>
Christ there was also an unborn one? Ever heard of Gothic <br>
gnostics? :) I remember similar examples in the Bible without the <br>
article, e.g. at andanahtja ŝan waurŝanamma. <br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span>
<!-- Start the section with Message In topic -->
<div id="ygrp-actbar">
<span class="left">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/10076;_ylc=X3oDMTM2cWlwOXQwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwMDg5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIwMzk4Mjk0NwR0cGNJZAMxMDA3Ng--">
Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">7</span>)
</span>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxa2Q5cXNvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwMDg5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTIwMzk4Mjk0Nw--?act=reply&messageNum=10089">
<span class="bld">
Reply </span> (via web post)
</a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcWwzcTc4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIwMzk4Mjk0Nw--" class="bld">
Start a new topic </a>
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vitnav">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMnFjOW9mBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTIwMzk4Mjk0Nw--">Messages</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlY3NncjNhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTIwMzk4Mjk0Nw--">Members</a>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-grft">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<!-- yahoo logo -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-ft">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkanV2aWtqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjAzOTgyOTQ3">
<img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmYTA4amxkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDM5ODI5NDc-">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJkOHBwczV0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMjAzOTgyOTQ3">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=">
Unsubscribe </a>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:140px;float: left; clear: none; margin-left: 5px; background:white; margin-bottom:25px ;position:absolute; top:0; right: 0;">
<!-- Network content -->
<!-- Start vitality -->
<div id="ygrp-vital">
<div id="vithd">Recent Activity</div>
<ul style="list-style-type:none; padding: 0; margin: 2px 0;">
<li style="clear: both;">
<div class="ct" style="float: right;"><span style="display:none"> </span>1</div>
<div class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmYzF2M2VpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDM5ODI5NDc-">New Members</a></div>
</li>
</ul>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNGJ2bXZ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTIwMzk4Mjk0Nw--">
Visit Your Group </a>
</div>
<!-- Network content -->
<div id="nc">
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Yahoo! Groups</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13pbqjmku/M=493064.12016299.12445691.11322765/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1203990147/L=/B=6oT8BELaX98-/J=1203982947253114/A=4990214/R=0/SIG=11d53kq3t/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/curves/">Wellness Spot</a></p>
<p>A resource for living</p>
<p>the Curves lifestyle.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Special K Group</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13pguk5jv/M=493064.12016300.12445692.11323196/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1203990147/L=/B=64T8BELaX98-/J=1203982947253114/A=5170416/R=0/SIG=11b5gu1oe/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/specialKgroup">on Yahoo! Groups</a></p>
<p>Learn how others</p>
<p>are losing pounds.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Y! Groups blog</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o0mlu9q/M=493064.12016258.12582637.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1203990147/L=/B=7IT8BELaX98-/J=1203982947253114/A=5191953/R=0/SIG=112mhte3e/*http://www.ygroupsblog.com/blog/">The place to go</a></p>
<p>to stay informed</p>
<p>on Groups news!</p> </div>
</div>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=10089/stime=1203982947/nc1=4990214/nc2=5170416/nc3=5191953" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mkp{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 14px 0px;
padding: 0px 14px;
}
#ygrp-mkp hr{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}
#ygrp-mkp #hd{
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: bold;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0px;
}
#ygrp-mkp #ads{
margin-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad{
padding: 0 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad a{
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
font-family: Arial;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: bold;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
#ygrp-text{
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p{
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-tpmsgs{
font-family: Arial;
clear: both;
}
#ygrp-vitnav{
padding-top: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-vitnav a{
padding: 0 1px;
}
#ygrp-actbar{
clear: both;
margin: 25px 0;
white-space:nowrap;
color: #666;
text-align: right;
}
#ygrp-actbar .left{
float: left;
white-space:nowrap;
}
.bld{font-weight:bold;}
#ygrp-grft{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
padding: 15px 0;
}
#ygrp-ft{
font-family: verdana;
font-size: 77%;
border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc{
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o{font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal{
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq{margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->