<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body style="background-color: #ffffff;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 470px; margin:0; padding:0 25px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" <600cell@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Hi Ingemar, Llama Nom,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your answers to my questions. Llama Nom, most of your <br>
answer is completely over my head (just as Ingemar suggested any <br>
answer I got would be), but I think I get the general picture!<br>
<br>
Do the specific similarities with Old Gutnish suggest that Gothic <br>
shared a closer connection with Old Gutnish than with other early <br>
germanic dialects/languages? And if so, how conclusive should I (a <br>
linguistic ignoramus) consider the philological evidence for this to <br>
be?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Tim<br>
<br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "Tim Caldwell" <vikingtimbo650@<wbr>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> > Is the gothic language archaic only because it's attested earlier <br>
> > than other germanic languages, or could there be other reasons as <br>
> > well? If texts written in other contemporary germanic languages <br>
from <br>
> > western Germany and Scandinavia were to be discovered, would we <br>
> > expect the languages they were written in to be just as archaic?<br>
> <br>
> Hi Tim,<br>
> <br>
> In some ways, the precursors of the attested North and West Germanic<br>
> languages would actually have been more archaic than Gothic was in <br>
the<br>
> 4th and 5th centuries! A nice illustration of this is the Gallehus<br>
> Horn inscription: ek Hlewagastiz holtijaz horna tawidô, which <br>
Nielsen<br>
> reconstructed in Gothic as: ik Hliugasts hulteis haurn tawida.<br>
> <br>
> (In the following, AN = Ancient Nordic, the language of the earliest<br>
> Scandinavian inscriptions, called by some Proto-Norse, Proto-Nordic <br>
or<br>
> Old Runic, etc.; NWG = Northwest Germanic, NG = North Germanic; WG =<br>
> West Germanic; Go. = Gothic; ON = Old Norse; OE = Old English; OS =<br>
> Old Saxon; OHG = Old High German.)<br>
> <br>
> 1. Words in Proto-Germanic consisted of a root, so for example <br>
*stadiz<br>
> "place" can be analysed as stad- + a stem vowel -i- + a grammatical<br>
> ending -z. Gothic had already lost the stem vowels in certain <br>
endings<br>
> which are preserved in some later WG languages, and would have still<br>
> existed in NG at the time of the Gothic Bible, for example in the<br>
> nominative singular of masculine i-stems with a short root: Go. <br>
staþs,<br>
> OE stede, OS stedi, OHG stat, ON staðr, AN *stadiz. Runic<br>
> inscriptions of the 4th and 5th centuries from NWG areas show stem<br>
> vowels also in types of word from which they had dissappeared by the<br>
> time that the descendant dialects were attested in manuscripts: AN<br>
> gastiz : Go. gasts; AN stainaz : Go. stains; AN hlaiwa : Go. hlaiw; <br>
AN<br>
> horna : Go. haurn.<br>
> <br>
> 2. Biblical Gothic had lost the distinction between Germanic *i and <br>
*e<br>
> which is preserved in later NWG languages. Also the distinction<br>
> between Germanic *u and *o, if the Proto-Germanic dialect from which<br>
> Gothic descended ever made this distinction. I don't know if it <br>
did.<br>
> Old Gutnish, the variety of Old Norse spoken on Gotland, also <br>
doesn't<br>
> make this distinction, and like Gothic regularly has `o' before `r',<br>
> but `u' in other positions. On the other hand, there is some (very<br>
> tenuous!) evidence of the distinction being preserved in Crimean<br>
> Gothic, especially in the word `schuos', a misprint for *schnos? <br>
`o'<br>
> appears in some other Crimean Gothic words where it does in NWG, but<br>
> this one could be significant because it wasn't among those <br>
recognised<br>
> as Germanic by Busbeque.<br>
> <br>
> 3. Gothic lost the distinction between Proto-Germanic final <br>
unstressed<br>
> *ô and *ôn, which both became `a'. In North Germanic final <br>
unstressed<br>
> *ô became `u' and final unstressed *ôn became `ô'. Thus in the<br>
> nominative singular: Go. rûna : AN *rûnu (cf. `liubu' on the Opedal<br>
> stone) : OE rûn; versus the accusative singular: Go. rûna : AN <br>
rûnô :<br>
> OE rûne.<br>
> <br>
> 4. In Gothic, Proto-Germanic unstressed final *ê2 fell together with<br>
> *ôn as Go. `a'. Because of this, Gothic lost the distinction <br>
between<br>
> the 1st and 2nd person singular past indicative endings of weak <br>
verbs<br>
> (the kind that form their past tense by adding a dental ending). <br>
Thus<br>
> we find forms like AN `fa(i)hidô' "I painted" (ON fáða) and AN<br>
> `fa(i)hidê' "he or she painted" (ON fáði), but Go. `melida' "I <br>
wrote"<br>
> = Go. `melida' "he/she wrote".<br>
> <br>
> 5. Gothic had lost the final *z in the dative plural. This is<br>
> preserved in the 7th c. Stentoften stone runic inscription, which <br>
has<br>
> the dative plural ending -umz, and even survives in a limited way in<br>
> Modern Icelandic in variants of the dative of the numerals 2 <br>
(tveimur)<br>
> and 3 (þremur). In the WG area, the dative plural is attested in <br>
some<br>
> Latin inscriptions dedicated to goddesses: Aflims (besides the Latin<br>
> dative Afliabus), Vatvims (besides Latin Vatviabus), but had may <br>
have<br>
> disappeared in WG by the time that Gothic is attested. The exact <br>
date<br>
> of the loss of final -z in WG is uncertain, as far as I know.<br>
> <br>
> 6. Gothic devoiced final fricatives in a way that hadn't happened <br>
in NWG.<br>
> <br>
> 7. Gothic removed many traces of the operation of Verner's Law by<br>
> paradigmatic analogy, especially in the past tense strong verbs and<br>
> causative verbs of the 1st weak conjugation.<br>
> <br>
> 8. Later attested WG dialects preserve the instrumental case much <br>
more<br>
> extensively than Gothic does. In Gothic, only a couple of pronouns<br>
> survive of the old instrumental. Like Old Norse, Gothic used the<br>
> dative in place of the instrumental.<br>
> <br>
> 9. On the other hand, WG had some early innovations such as <br>
gemination<br>
> (doubling) of consonants before [j], attested in the Weser runes, c.<br>
> 400 (kunni), and the precise dating of other innovations in NG is<br>
> unclear...<br>
> <br>
> 10. SHARED ARCHAISMS. The NWG dialects of Wulfila's time were either<br>
> yet to experience the various changes known as i-mutation or i-<br>
umlaut,<br>
> or at least the results had yet to show up in inscriptions and<br>
> certainly wouldn't have been phonemically distinct (i.e. <br>
unpredicable<br>
> from neighbouring sounds). NWG dialects of Wulfila's time, like<br>
> Gothic, would still make a phonemic distinction between the reflexes<br>
> of Proto-Germanic *z and *r. No doubt there were lots of other <br>
shared<br>
> archaisms for which the evidence is lacking.<br>
> <br>
> Llama Nom<br>
><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span>
<!-- Start the section with Message In topic -->
<div id="ygrp-actbar">
<span class="left">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/10114;_ylc=X3oDMTM2Z2lwYmsyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwMTI5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIwNTc5NTkyOQR0cGNJZAMxMDExNA--">
Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">4</span>)
</span>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxa3VjaWE0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwMTI5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTIwNTc5NTkyOQ--?act=reply&messageNum=10129">
<span class="bld">
Reply </span> (via web post)
</a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJldmFtNTN1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIwNTc5NTkyOQ--" class="bld">
Start a new topic </a>
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vitnav">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcDFiZXRtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTIwNTc5NTkyOQ--">Messages</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlamhuMnFnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTIwNTc5NTkyOQ--">Members</a>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-grft">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<!-- yahoo logo -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-ft">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkb29vanRxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjA1Nzk1OTI5">
<img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZWhzZmZiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDU3OTU5Mjk-">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJkazFrZTJwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMjA1Nzk1OTI5">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=">
Unsubscribe </a>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background:white;">
<!-- Network content -->
<!-- Start Recommendations -->
<div id="ygrp-reco">
</div>
<!-- End Recommendations -->
<!-- Start vitality -->
<div id="ygrp-vital">
<div id="vithd">Recent Activity</div>
<ul style="list-style-type:none; padding: 0; margin: 2px 0;">
<li style="clear: both;">
<div class="ct" style="float: right;"><span style="display:none"> </span>1</div>
<div class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmcDd2cjVhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMDU3OTU5Mjk-">New Members</a></div>
</li>
</ul>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlamZvODltBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTIwNTc5NTkyOQ--">
Visit Your Group </a>
</div>
<!-- Network content -->
<div id="nc">
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">New web site?</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o0l4b86/M=493064.12016308.12445700.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1205803129/L=/B=pd6gCEJe5tg-/J=1205795929638275/A=3848642/R=0/SIG=131eshi2t/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2004&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups3&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50">Drive traffic now.</a></p>
<p>Get your business</p>
<p>on Yahoo! search.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Move More</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13p0am626/M=493064.12016299.12445691.11322765/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1205803129/L=/B=pt6gCEJe5tg-/J=1205795929638275/A=4990216/R=0/SIG=11d53kq3t/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/curves/">on Yahoo! Groups</a></p>
<p>This is your life</p>
<p>not a phys-ed class.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Yahoo! Groups</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13oqb9fcj/M=493064.12016283.12445687.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1205803129/L=/B=p96gCEJe5tg-/J=1205795929638275/A=5202322/R=0/SIG=11aijbghb/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/allbrangroup">w/ John McEnroe</a></p>
<p>Join the All-Bran</p>
<p>Day 10 Club.</p> </div>
</div>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=10129/stime=1205795929/nc1=3848642/nc2=4990216/nc3=5202322" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mkp{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 14px 0px;
padding: 0px 14px;
}
#ygrp-mkp hr{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}
#ygrp-mkp #hd{
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: bold;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0px;
}
#ygrp-mkp #ads{
margin-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad{
padding: 0 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad a{
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
font-family: Arial;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: bold;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
#ygrp-text{
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p{
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-tpmsgs{
font-family: Arial;
clear: both;
}
#ygrp-vitnav{
padding-top: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-vitnav a{
padding: 0 1px;
}
#ygrp-actbar{
clear: both;
margin: 25px 0;
white-space:nowrap;
color: #666;
text-align: right;
}
#ygrp-actbar .left{
float: left;
white-space:nowrap;
}
.bld{font-weight:bold;}
#ygrp-grft{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
padding: 15px 0;
}
#ygrp-ft{
font-family: verdana;
font-size: 77%;
border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}
#ygrp-reco #reco-head {
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
}
#reco-grpname{
font-weight: bold;
margin-top: 10px;
}
#reco-category{
font-size: 77%;
}
#reco-desc{
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc{
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o{font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal{
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq{margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->