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<p><br>
Hi Francisc,<br>
<br>
I think you gave a good, balanced explanation there. I also see<br>
there's quiet a nice Wikipedia article on NWG [<br>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Germanic">http://en.wikipedia<wbr>.org/wiki/<wbr>Northwest_<wbr>Germanic</a> ]. It makes a point I<br>
was going to:<br>
<br>
"However, as long as Northwest Germanic is not regarded as a distinct<br>
proto-language, it is possible to harmonize these two hypotheses. An<br>
early close relationship between Nordic and Gothic dialects does not<br>
exclude a later similar relationship between remaining North and West<br>
Germanic groups, once the Gothic migration had started in the 2nd or<br>
3rd century."<br>
<br>
You'd then simply have some isoglosses marking a NW versus E divide,<br>
others NE versus W. That said, I'm not sure that all points of<br>
agreement can be accounted for in the way suggested in the last<br>
paragraph. For example, Gothic shares with OHG and OS voicing of the<br>
3rd person singular and 2nd person plural verbal ending -id (as<br>
against -iŝ in Proto-Old English and Ancient Nordic, as attested on<br>
the Stentoften stone; the attested OHG -it is due to the later High<br>
German consonant shift). This final /d/ is usually devoiced in Gothic<br>
according to the later rule that all final fricatives were devoiced,<br>
but the original voiced form survives when an enclitic particle is<br>
attached ('wileidu'), and is shown in analogical spellings such as<br>
'habaid', 'giutid' and 'wopeid'. Gothic also shares with OHG the<br>
voiced final dental in the 3rd person plural -and (which became -ant<br>
in OHG later according to the High German consonant shift). But the<br>
early history of the dialects in this respect is obscure, so I<br>
wouldn't rule anything out.<br>
<br>
> - the definite article (?)<br>
<br>
The earliest Old English poetry is much more sparing in its use of the<br>
demonstrative as a definite article than Old English prose, not so<br>
different to Gothic usage. Early Old Norse poetry and runic<br>
inscriptions are also more like Gothic in this respect; the suffixed<br>
article was an innovation in ON. And of course, we have little idea<br>
about the later development of Gothic. At least we know that i-umlaut<br>
couldn't have operated in the same was as it did later (and partly<br>
independently) in the various NWG dialects, since Gothic had already<br>
lost many of the endings that were to give rise to i-umlaut. And<br>
there's no sign of it in Crimean Gothic, e.g. in 'ada' "egg".<br>
<br>
> - the z>R>r evolution<br>
<br>
I suspect that the 'r' colouring is quite early in NWG. This could<br>
explain the lowering of short high vowels before original /z/ in some<br>
dialects, as in OE mé, ON mér : OHG mir, Go. mis. But the evolution of<br>
vowels in Old English suggests that Proto-Germanic /z/ and /r/ were<br>
still distinct phonemes in England until not long before the earliest<br>
written texts (excepting runic inscriptions)<wbr>, and the distinction<br>
lasted even longer in Scandinavia.<br>
<br>
> Other arguments, like the distinctions s-z, e-i, o-u may be shared <br>
> archaisms (otherways said: the loss of these distinctions is an <br>
> innovation of Gothic).<br>
<br>
Just to clarify: the s-z distinction wasn't lost, per se, in Gothic.<br>
It was cancelled out in final position, but the voiced form was<br>
restored before inflectional endings and when an enlitic particle was<br>
added, thus: 'hatis' (nom.sg.): 'hatiza' (dat.sg.); 'wileis' :<br>
'wileizu'; weis : weizuŝ-ŝan; sums : sumzuŝ-ŝan (although 'sumsuh' is<br>
also attested). It's not clear whether spellings like 'wopeid' and<br>
'giutid' reflect an analogous restoration of voiced forms in<br>
pronunciation; I suspect it's more likely that they are just analogous<br>
spellings, but that's just my guess. The 'z', and voiced fricatives<br>
generally, were often replaced with the corresponding voiceless<br>
fricative by paradigmatic analogy in the preterite of strong verbs,<br>
and in causative verbs by analogy with the strong verbs from which<br>
they derived: Go. us-kiusan, us-kusun : OE ceosan, curon; Go.<br>
ur-reisan, ur-raisjan : OE rísan, ráeran. But there is no general<br>
confusion of medial 'z' and 's' in Gothic: 'hazjan', 'nasjan' (but<br>
never *hasjan or *nazjan). <br>
<br>
LN<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@<wbr>...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hi, Ian<br>
> <br>
> NWG is not something new - I've read for the first time about it many <br>
> years ago, and looked like something quite widely accepted among <br>
> linguists.<br>
> Don't remember exactly now what were the arguments for a NWG linguistic <br>
> community; but among others were for sure:<br>
> - the Umlaut<br>
> - the z>R>r evolution<br>
> - the definite article (?)<br>
> Other arguments, like the distinctions s-z, e-i, o-u may be shared <br>
> archaisms (otherways said: the loss of these distinctions is an <br>
> innovation of Gothic).<br>
> But these arguments are not always very solid:<br>
> - the Umlaut started at different times in WG and NG and was not <br>
> operating identically;<br>
> - the z>R>r evolution didn't work in the same conditions in WG and NG;<br>
> - the definite article in NG is different from that in WG; regarding <br>
> Gothic, it uses many times the demonstrative sa/so/thata as a definite <br>
> article.<br>
> On the other hand, there are arguments for a Gothic-NG community, like <br>
> for instance -ww- > -ggw- and -jj- > -ggj- (> Gothic -ddj-).<br>
> <br>
> I'm sure that there is much more to be said related to this subject.<br>
> <br>
> Fr.<br>
> <br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "Ian Ragsdale" <delvebelow@<wbr>> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > I must confess that the concept of NWG is new to me. Is this a <br>
> contested<br>
> > theory or is it becoming accepted? And any other suggested authors <br>
> besides<br>
> > the already-mentioned Nielsen?<br>
> > <br>
> > -Ian R<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
> ><br>
><br>
<br>
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