<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body style="background-color: #ffffff;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 470px; margin:0; padding:0 25px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>Doesn't it seem to be as crimean gothic differences from biblical <br>
also appears in later visi- and ostrogothic as they were spoken in <br>
italy and spain. Such as e: to i:, o: to u: etc?<br>
<br>
The fact that CG has e as in schwester where biblical has i isn't <br>
that just a difference that developed as a dialectal form in perhaps <br>
visigothic?<br>
<br>
if CG have similarities with WG in grammar rather than with Biblical <br>
gothic, isn't that perhaps because Bibilical gothic has a major greek <br>
influence and the spoken language probably was more germanic than the <br>
written and thus more similar to WG than the written biblical gothic?<br>
<br>
(see more below)<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" <600cell@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> <br>
> Here is a slightly edited version of a summary of Ottar <br>
> Grønvik: "Die dialektgeographisch<wbr>e Stelling des Krimgotischen<br>
> und die krimgotische cantilena." which I posted a while ago.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> In brief, he argues that Crimean Gothic is a West Germanic dialect <br>
> that separated from the WG continuum at some time before c. 200 AD <br>
> and after that underwent sound changes in common with the language <br>
> that evolved into Biblical Gothic. For phonetic spellings I've<br>
> used the SAMPA notation [ <br>
> <a href="http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm">http://www.phon.<wbr>ucl.ac.uk/<wbr>home/sampa/<wbr>home.htm</a> ].<br>
> <br>
> Otherwise I've followed the spellings in the article.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Features of Crimean Gothic:<br>
> <br>
> 1) No i/j mutation (thus agreeing with Gothic against NWG).<br>
> 2) z > s finally, as in Gothic (*schnos v. OE snoru, ON snør)-- good<br>
> evidence for treatment of Gmc. /z/, as Busbecq apparently didn't<br>
> recognise the word as Germanic.<br>
> 3) u & i preserved before nasal + cons., or before high vowel in<br>
> following syllable (gira < *giri), otherwise lowered in same<br>
> circumstances as in NWG (boga, *schnos v. *thuru; schwester v.<br>
> wintch).<br>
> 4) Raising of e > i before u/w irregular (seuene, fyder), but so too<br>
> in other dialects.<br>
<br>
Would some exlain this to me.<br>
Should e have risen to i in seuene? Is the u in seuene a way of <br>
writing v or w?<br>
<br>
about fyder: if e has been raised to i, then y is just another way of <br>
spelling i. But couldn't this be a u-umlaut?<br>
fidwor > fyder.<br>
<br>
OPr maybe it raised from fedwor to fidwor and then u-umlauted to <br>
fyder with weakened o to e.<br>
<br>
> 5) ð > d, as in WG, and subsequently devoiced (plut). Initially and<br>
> in voiced medial positions þ > d. But þ > þ, spelt <tz>, finally<br>
> and medially in voiceless environment. Due to frequent occurrence<br>
> as enclitic in such positions, the pronoun tzo `thou' retained the<br>
> sound.<br>
> 6) Unstressed vowels > @ (schwa), represented by random vowel<br>
> letters, except for Old Crimean Gothic o:n > u:, spelt <ou><br>
> (kadariou = /kad@rju:/ < *ka(n)dario:<wbr>n < Lat. centurio:n-)<wbr>.<br>
> 7) /n/ lost after long vowel (kadariou), but kept after short (verb<br>
> inf. ending -en).<br>
> 8) i: > i: u: > u: e: > i: o: > u: eu > i:<br>
> iu > i:, y:? ai > e: au > o:<br>
> 9) initial /h/ lost.<br>
> <br>
> (Thinks: Point (3) assumes that a-umlaut etc. was a NWG innovation.<br>
> Question, can we tell whether Gothic was unaffected by this change,<br>
> or just lost the distinction between these sounds at a later date?<br>
> Grønvik doesn't bring into the discussion the letter names from the<br>
> Vienna-Salzburg codex: chozma, geuua, enguz.)<br>
> <br>
> Regarding /i:/ from Gmc. e:1, Grønvik says 4.4.2.3.1. that /e:/<br>
> > /a:/ very early in NG but not among the West Germanic people of<br>
> the Elbe region till the end of the 2nd century AD. Later still<br>
> among the Franks in the vicinity of the Rhine. Regarding ð > d,<br>
> Grønvik says 4.4.2.3.2 that this a common WG development, ? 2nd c.<br>
> or earlier. Regarding rhoticism of Gmc /z/, Grønvik says 4.4.2.3.4<br>
> that WG probably retained /z/ before 200. The final devoicing he<br>
> sees as a Migration Era sound change shared by Crimean and Biblical<br>
> Gothic. Similarly with the monophthongisation of /ai/ and /au/.<br>
> <br>
> (The full reasoning behind these assumptions is not explained, but I<br>
> gather there are some Latin inscriptions to West Germanic goddesses<br>
> (`Matrons') which preserve a Germanic dative plural ending: Aflims,<br>
> Vatvims, Saitchamimi(<wbr>s).)<br>
> <br>
> 10) warthata = /wartt@te/ < warhta + preterite ending repeated by<br>
> analogy.<br>
> 11) /al:/ lapis = ON hallr, OE heall, rather than Got. hallus.<br>
> 12) thurn = *thuru = /dur@/, old dual form cognate with OE, OS duru,<br>
> rather than Got. daur, daurons.<br>
> ____________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_________<wbr>_______<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Sequence of changes acc. Grønvik:<br>
> <br>
> 1. NWG<br>
> u > u / o<br>
> e > e / i<br>
> <br>
> 2. WG to 200<br>
> æ: > e:<br>
> d, ð > d<br>
> z > z<br>
> lþ > lþ<br>
> þ > þ, ð<br>
> e – u/w > i<br>
> xj > xxj<br>
> ngw > ng<br>
> <br>
> 3. Pre-Gothic<br>
> jj > ddj<br>
> Reduction of unstressed vowels<br>
> Devoicing of final fricatives<br>
> Monophthongisation of ai, au > E:, O:<br>
> rB > rb (dorbiza)<br>
> No i-umlaut<br>
> <br>
> 4. Old Crimean Gothic + Gothic 350 – 550<br>
> iu > y:<br>
> eu > e:<br>
> e:, o: > i:, u:<br>
> E:, O: > e:, o:<br>
> Further reduction of unstressed vowels<br>
> (þ >) [ð], [d]<br>
> xt, xs > tt, ss<br>
> sk > sch<br>
> sw, sl, sn > schw, schl, schn<br>
> b, d, g devoiced initially<br>
> h-, -h- > Ø<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> The song! He reconstructs/<wbr>interprets thus, explaining his reasoning<br>
> in full detail. I've written it out in SAMPA phonetic notation<br>
> after.<br>
> <br>
> wara wara ing[a]dolou<br>
> scu te gira galtzou<br>
> heemisclep dorbize ea<br>
> <br>
> war@ war@ in-gad@lu: (in-gad@lu)<br>
> Su: t@ gir@ galtTu: (galTu:)<br>
> he:m@SlEp: dorb@z@ E@<br>
> <br>
> Guard (watch over / look after / protect) the very beautiful one.<br>
> You gave (paid) desirable [horse] shoes.<br>
> Let the hungry horse out graze at home.<br>
> <br>
> The 1st & 3rd lines are taken to be commands/requests.<br>
> <br>
> scu = *schu `set of [horse] shoes' < gaskohi `pair of shoes' (as in<br>
> Biblical Gothic, but not specifically EG).<br>
> <br>
> *schlep `let loose to graze' he suggests is a loan from ON sleppa<br>
> (while also considering a possible WG etymology). Following Norse<br>
> grammar he takes <dorbize> as a dative f. sg. adjective, pointing<br>
> out that the pronominal-style of the adjective ending agrees with <br>
WG <br>
> rather than Biblical Gothic. He also considers (as less likely) the <br>
> possibility that this is a comparative.<br>
> <br>
> <te> is interpreted as WG, although acc. G's phonology it could<br>
> equally apply be from a Gothic-like /du/.<br>
> <br>
> The situation of the song is compared to the opening lines of<br>
> Norwegian heroic ballads. As a less likely possibility he suggests<br>
> a children's rhyme.<br>
><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span>
<!-- Start the section with Message In topic -->
<div id="ygrp-actbar">
<span class="left">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/8616;_ylc=X3oDMTM1ZWtwOWxuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwMTY3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIxMDkzNTcwOQR0cGNJZAM4NjE2">
Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">4</span>)
</span>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxcG45NHBmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwMTY3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTIxMDkzNTcwOQ--?act=reply&messageNum=10167">
<span class="bld">
Reply </span> (via web post)
</a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlM2oyZDY3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIxMDkzNTcwOQ--" class="bld">
Start a new topic </a>
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vitnav">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJldmFmOTUxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTIxMDkzNTcwOQ--">Messages</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbWVvZ20xBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTIxMDkzNTcwOQ--">Members</a>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-grft">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<!-- yahoo logo -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-ft">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMDFpbjZqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjEwOTM1NzA5">
<img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZzdrazhhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTA5MzU3MDk-">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcXZmcTIzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMjEwOTM1NzA5">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=">
Unsubscribe </a>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background:white;">
<!-- Network content -->
<!-- Start Recommendations -->
<div id="ygrp-reco">
</div>
<!-- End Recommendations -->
<!-- Start vitality -->
<div id="ygrp-vital">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbjd0bHVqBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTIxMDkzNTcwOQ--">
Visit Your Group </a>
</div>
<!-- Network content -->
<div id="nc">
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">New web site?</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13oo9cpaj/M=493064.12016308.12445700.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1210942910/L=/B=tuDAA0LaX9M-/J=1210935710149205/A=3848642/R=0/SIG=131eshi2t/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2004&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups3&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50">Drive traffic now.</a></p>
<p>Get your business</p>
<p>on Yahoo! search.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Moderator Central</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ok6rkgm/M=493064.12016262.12445669.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1210942910/L=/B=t.DAA0LaX9M-/J=1210935710149205/A=5028924/R=0/SIG=11e3tma2a/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/moderatorcentral">Yahoo! Groups</a></p>
<p>Join and receive</p>
<p>produce updates.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Healthy Living</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13orkal9c/M=493064.12662709.12980595.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1210942910/L=/B=uODAA0LaX9M-/J=1210935710149205/A=5349280/R=0/SIG=11ks6tatn/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/HealthyLiving/">Learn to live life</a></p>
<p>to the fullest</p>
<p>on Yahoo! Groups.</p> </div>
</div>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=10167/stime=1210935709/nc1=3848642/nc2=5028924/nc3=5349280" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mkp{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 14px 0px;
padding: 0px 14px;
}
#ygrp-mkp hr{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}
#ygrp-mkp #hd{
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: bold;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0px;
}
#ygrp-mkp #ads{
margin-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad{
padding: 0 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad a{
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
font-family: Arial;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: bold;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
#ygrp-text{
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p{
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-tpmsgs{
font-family: Arial;
clear: both;
}
#ygrp-vitnav{
padding-top: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-vitnav a{
padding: 0 1px;
}
#ygrp-actbar{
clear: both;
margin: 25px 0;
white-space:nowrap;
color: #666;
text-align: right;
}
#ygrp-actbar .left{
float: left;
white-space:nowrap;
}
.bld{font-weight:bold;}
#ygrp-grft{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
padding: 15px 0;
}
#ygrp-ft{
font-family: verdana;
font-size: 77%;
border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}
#ygrp-reco #reco-head {
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
}
#reco-grpname{
font-weight: bold;
margin-top: 10px;
}
#reco-category{
font-size: 77%;
}
#reco-desc{
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc{
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o{font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal{
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq{margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->