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<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "llama_nom" <600cell@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Doesn't it seem to be as crimean gothic differences from biblical <br>
> > also appears in later visi- and ostrogothic as they were spoken <br>
in <br>
> > italy and spain. Such as e: to i:, o: to u: etc?<br>
> <br>
> Yes, these two sound changes are found in Gothic personal names<br>
> recorded by writers of Latin and Greek, and seem to have been a<br>
> feature of spoken Gothic in Italy at the time when the surviving<br>
> manuscripts were produced. The scribal confusion of `e' with `ei',<br>
> and `o' with `u' affects some parts of the Gothic Bible more than<br>
> others; the surviving texts are apparently based on earlier versions<br>
> in which this confusion didn't exist.<br>
> <br>
Are these changes only valid for the gothic spoken in italy and not <br>
spain? if so, should it be considered a specific ostrogothic change <br>
as it also occures in crimean gothic?<br>
<br>
other changes are diphthongs becoming monophthongs.<br>
biblical ai corresponds to crimean e (long probably?), which is <br>
common with italian ostrogothic (?). But what about biblical au. In <br>
italian gothic it is o (long here too?), like Oderit from Audareths.<br>
Did crimean have long o here too, like broe from brauth?<br>
<br>
> > The fact that CG has e as in schwester where biblical has i isn't <br>
> > that just a difference that developed as a dialectal form in <br>
perhaps <br>
> > visigothic?<br>
> <br>
> It might be that the loss of distinction between PGmc. /i/ and /e/<br>
> wasn't a feature of all Gothic dialects. Or it might be that <br>
Busbeque<br>
> used `e' in some of these words because he assimilated them to West<br>
> Germanic cognates that were familiar to him. Alternatively, `i' <br>
could<br>
> have been lowered to `e' later in the history of Crimean Gothic in<br>
> some contexts at least. I don't think there's enough evidence to <br>
be sure.<br>
<br>
Probably not, but it seems to be as crimean has i where pgmc had it <br>
and e where pgmc had it. Doesn't it?<br>
<br>
> <br>
> > if CG have similarities with WG in grammar rather than with <br>
Biblical <br>
> > gothic, isn't that perhaps because Bibilical gothic has a major <br>
greek <br>
> > influence and the spoken language probably was more germanic than <br>
the <br>
> > written and thus more similar to WG than the written biblical <br>
gothic?<br>
> <br>
> One grammatical difference that Grønvik refers to here is<br>
> morphological: the use of the pronominal ending in feminine dative<br>
> singular adjectives (dorbize). There is no evidence, as far as I<br>
> know, that the Greek source influenced the morphology (variable word<br>
> forms, inflections) of the Gothic translation, although it did have <br>
a<br>
> big influence on word order. But the identification of this word is<br>
> highly speculative, so it's not at all clear whether Grønvik's<br>
> conclusion is correct. If it was a comparative or something else<br>
> entirely (which it could well be), his argument wouldn't hold.<br>
> <br>
> > > 4) Raising of e > i before u/w irregular (seuene, fyder), but <br>
so too<br>
> > > in other dialects.<br>
> > <br>
> > Would some exlain this to me.<br>
> > Should e have risen to i in seuene? Is the u in seuene a way of <br>
> > writing v or w?<br>
> <br>
> The potential cause of the raising that Grønvik is talking about <br>
here<br>
> is no longer evident in the Crimean Gothic forms, but still present <br>
in<br>
> Biblical Gothic: [u] in the case of `sibun', and [w] in the case of<br>
> `fidwor'. And yes, the `u' in `seuene' could represent [v] or [w].<br>
> <br>
> > about fyder: if e has been raised to i, then y is just another <br>
way of <br>
> > spelling i. But couldn't this be a u-umlaut?<br>
> > fidwor > fyder.<br>
> <br>
> Maybe. One thing that suggests that Busbeque might have used `y'<br>
> interchangeably with `i' is that it also appears in `mycha' <br>
(Biblical<br>
> Gothic `meikeis'), where there was no following [u] or [w] in <br>
earlier<br>
> stages of the language.<br>
> <br>
> > OPr maybe it raised from fedwor to fidwor and then u-umlauted to <br>
> > fyder with weakened o to e.<br>
> <br>
> I guess you meant OCr (Old Crimean)? That seems a reasonable<br>
> possibility to me. Either of these could have happened:<br>
<br>
That was actually just a typo, meant 'Or'<br>
<br>
> <br>
> [e] > [i]<br>
> [e] > [i] > [y]<br>
> <br>
> And even if the latter had happened, it could have been unrounded <br>
later.<br>
><br>
<br>
Is it only Busbeque's writings that makes the source to crimean <br>
gothic or is there any other? How much about CG can be stated as fact <br>
by analyzing these sources? About grammar and phonology.<br>
If I understand correct most people think there's a lot of typos and <br>
other errors in his writings and therefor not totaly reliable.<br>
<br>
/Fredrik<br>
<br>
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