<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body style="background-color: #ffffff;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 470px; margin:0; padding:0 25px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@.<wbr>..> wrote:<br>
><br>
<br>
> Are these changes [ [e:] > [i:] and [o] > [u:] ] only valid for the<br>
gothic spoken in italy and not spain? if so, should it be considered a<br>
specific ostrogothic change as it also occures in crimean gothic?<br>
<br>
I don't know. That's an interesting question. There might be some<br>
clues in personal names recorded by Greek and Roman writers, and in<br>
loanwords in Spanish, Catalan, Portuguese and Provencal.<br>
<br>
> other changes are diphthongs becoming monophthongs.<br>
biblical ai corresponds to crimean e (long probably?), which is<br>
common with italian ostrogothic (?). But what about biblical au. In<br>
italian gothic it is o (long here too?), like Oderit from Audareths.<br>
Did crimean have long o here too, like broe from brauth?<br>
<br>
It certainly looks that way. As well as Broe, we have Hoef (haubiþ)<br>
and Oeghene (augono). The initial letter in Iel (háils) may betray<br>
Greek influence [ <br>
<a href="http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/gotol-10.html#Got10_GP46">http://www.utexas.<wbr>edu/cola/<wbr>centers/lrc/<wbr>eieol/gotol-<wbr>10.html#Got10_<wbr>GP46</a><br>
], in which case this could be an example of [e:] for PGmc. [ai].<br>
<br>
> [...] but it seems to be as crimean has i where pgmc had it<br>
and e where pgmc had it. Doesn't it?<br>
<br>
Yes, as far as I can tell. Especially interesting regarding short [o],<br>
is the word Schuos (probably a printing mistake for Schnos), since<br>
Busbeque didn't recognise this as a Germanic word, and yet it seems to<br>
show lowering of PGmc. [u] to [o] before a central vowel, as tended to<br>
happen in North and West Germanic, but not Biblical Gothic: snusô ><br>
Crim. Got. *schnos, BGot. *snuza, OE snoru, ON snør.<br>
<br>
> Is it only Busbeque's writings that makes the source to crimean<br>
gothic or is there any other?<br>
<br>
Yes, sadly that's all we have. Unless anything else comes to light in<br>
the future...<br>
<br>
> How much about CG can be stated as fact<br>
by analyzing these sources? About grammar and phonology.<br>
If I understand correct most people think there's a lot of typos and<br>
other errors in his writings and therefor not totaly reliable.<br>
<br>
That's right. In fact, it's worse than that, because Busbeque's<br>
informants may not have been completely reliable either.<br>
<br>
Alter erat procerior, toto ore ingenuam quandam simplicitatem<br>
praeferens, ut Flander videretur aut Batavus: alter erat brevior,<br>
compactiore corpore, colore fusco, ortu et sermone Graecus, sed qui<br>
frequenti commercio non contemnendum eius linguae usum haberet, nam<br>
superior vicinitate, et frequenti Graecorum consuetudine sic eorum<br>
sermonem imbiberat, ut popularis sui esset oblitus, interrogatus de<br>
natura et moribus illorum populorum, congruentia respondebat. <br>
<br>
One of them was taller, displaying in his overall appearance a certain<br>
native simplicity, so that he looked like a Fleming or Dutchman: the<br>
other was shorted, with a stouter body, a swarthy color, Greek in<br>
origin and speech, but who with frequent interaction had a not<br>
disrespectable command of that language; for the first one on account<br>
of proximity and frequent dealings with Greeks had so taken in their<br>
speech as to have forgotten that of his own people; though when asked<br>
about the nature and customs of those peoples, he responded sensibly.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/gotol-10.html#Got10_GP46">http://www.utexas.<wbr>edu/cola/<wbr>centers/lrc/<wbr>eieol/gotol-<wbr>10.html#Got10_<wbr>GP46</a><br>
<a href="http://www.gotica.de/taurica.html">http://www.gotica.<wbr>de/taurica.<wbr>html</a><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span>
<!-- Start the section with Message In topic -->
<div id="ygrp-actbar">
<span class="left">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/8616;_ylc=X3oDMTM1cWhiNWRxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwMTc0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIxMjE0MTQ1MgR0cGNJZAM4NjE2">
Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">7</span>)
</span>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxMnBmdmhrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwMTc0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTIxMjE0MTQ1Mg--?act=reply&messageNum=10174">
<span class="bld">
Reply </span> (via web post)
</a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbG9sOTI1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIxMjE0MTQ1Mg--" class="bld">
Start a new topic </a>
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vitnav">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcWZtcDQ0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTIxMjE0MTQ1Mg--">Messages</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlM2I5NTBoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTIxMjE0MTQ1Mg--">Members</a>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-grft">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<!-- yahoo logo -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-ft">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkN2RkZ3JpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjEyMTQxNDUy">
<img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMXNyMjUzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTIxNDE0NTI-">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJkMDc3dTJoBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMjEyMTQxNDUy">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=">
Unsubscribe </a>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background:white;">
<!-- Network content -->
<!-- Start Recommendations -->
<div id="ygrp-reco">
</div>
<!-- End Recommendations -->
<!-- Start vitality -->
<div id="ygrp-vital">
<div id="vithd">Recent Activity</div>
<ul style="list-style-type:none; padding: 0; margin: 2px 0;">
<li style="clear: both;">
<div class="ct" style="float: right;"><span style="display:none"> </span>1</div>
<div class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmcGlkZWJyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMTIxNDE0NTI-">New Members</a></div>
</li>
</ul>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbWhydjJpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTIxMjE0MTQ1Mg--">
Visit Your Group </a>
</div>
<!-- Network content -->
<div id="nc">
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">New web site?</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13oa6jns9/M=493064.12016308.12445700.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1212148652/L=/B=tbpnAELaX.k-/J=1212141452541496/A=3848642/R=0/SIG=131eshi2t/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2004&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups3&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50">Drive traffic now.</a></p>
<p>Get your business</p>
<p>on Yahoo! search.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Yahoo! Groups</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o2rfa8n/M=493064.12016262.12445669.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1212148652/L=/B=trpnAELaX.k-/J=1212141452541496/A=5028926/R=0/SIG=11e3tma2a/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/moderatorcentral">Latest product news</a></p>
<p>Join Mod. Central</p>
<p>stay connected.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Yahoo! Groups</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ouuk2tj/M=493064.12016238.12823558.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1212148652/L=/B=t7pnAELaX.k-/J=1212141452541496/A=5286667/R=0/SIG=11in3uvr5/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/planforabalancedlife">Balance your life</a></p>
<p>by learning how to</p>
<p>make smart choices.</p> </div>
</div>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=10174/stime=1212141452/nc1=3848642/nc2=5028926/nc3=5286667" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mkp{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 14px 0px;
padding: 0px 14px;
}
#ygrp-mkp hr{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}
#ygrp-mkp #hd{
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: bold;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0px;
}
#ygrp-mkp #ads{
margin-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad{
padding: 0 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad a{
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
font-family: Arial;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: bold;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
#ygrp-text{
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p{
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-tpmsgs{
font-family: Arial;
clear: both;
}
#ygrp-vitnav{
padding-top: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-vitnav a{
padding: 0 1px;
}
#ygrp-actbar{
clear: both;
margin: 25px 0;
white-space:nowrap;
color: #666;
text-align: right;
}
#ygrp-actbar .left{
float: left;
white-space:nowrap;
}
.bld{font-weight:bold;}
#ygrp-grft{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
padding: 15px 0;
}
#ygrp-ft{
font-family: verdana;
font-size: 77%;
border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}
#ygrp-reco #reco-head {
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
}
#reco-grpname{
font-weight: bold;
margin-top: 10px;
}
#reco-category{
font-size: 77%;
}
#reco-desc{
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc{
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o{font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal{
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq{margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->