<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body style="background-color: #ffffff;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="width:655px; position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="width: 470px; margin:0; padding:0 25px 0 0; float:left; z-index:1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text">
<p>--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "Fredrik" <gadrauhts@.<wbr>..> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hails LN!<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> > 'hails' is used twice as a greeting or salutation in the Gothic <br>
> Bible,<br>
> > once with nominative, once with vocative - never with dative. Both<br>
> > instances agree with the Greek original. Nominative is used in other<br>
> > old Germanic languages, which lacked a distinct vocative form. There<br>
> > is also a longer form in these other languages meaning <br>
> explicitly "be<br>
> > well/healthy" (e.g. Old Norse 'vertu heill), which, had it existed <br>
> in<br>
> > Gothic would have required the nominative: hailai/hailos/<wbr>haila <br>
> sijaiþ<br>
> > (jus) allai/allos/<wbr>alla (masculine/feminine<wbr>/neuter).<br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> But is there any other attested way to greet?<br>
<br>
The angel who comes to Mary greets her with the imperative verb<br>
'fagino' "rejoice" or "be happy". This translates Greek CAIRE, as does<br>
'hails' when the soldiers mock Jesus, saying 'hails, þiudan(s) Iudaie'<br>
"hail, king of the Jews".<br>
<br>
Busbecq's list of Crimean Gothic words and expressions includes<br>
'knauen tag' "good day", which in Biblical Gothic would be 'godana<br>
dag' - accusative because it's really short for something like "I wish<br>
you a good day" or "have a good day".<br>
<br>
> I think it is most logic to use vocative now when you say it. But <br>
> haven't most people here used dative?<br>
<br>
True, but I think they're probably basing this idioms in their own<br>
languages, including Modern English. The other old Germanic languages<br>
use nominative, declining the adjective for gender and number. Here's<br>
a good example from the Old Norse poem Sigrdrífumál: Heill dagr.<br>
Heilir dags synir. Heil nótt ok nipt. [...] Heilir æsir. Heilar<br>
ásynjur. Heil sjá in fjölnýta fold. "Hail, day. Hail, day's sons.<br>
Hail, night and [her] daughter [...] Hail, gods. Hail, goddesses.<br>
Hail, you bountiful earth." You could also translate this into Modern<br>
English as "Hail to the gods [...] Hail to the bountiful earth" etc.<br>
<br>
> > 'fram' is always used with the dative, as far as I know, except <br>
> where<br>
> > a noun refering to someone's house is implied: gaggiþ sums manne <br>
> fram<br>
> > þis fauramaþleis swnagogais "a man came from (the house) of the <br>
> ruler<br>
> > of the synagogue" (L 8:49).<br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> So if I say "I come from Sweden" or "I am going away from the house" <br>
> whould I use dative or genitive then?<br>
<br>
Dative for both. The genitive is only used where you're talking about<br>
a particular person's house and the word for "house" is left unspoken.<br>
So 'fram' never really governs the genitive, it just happens to look<br>
as if it does in that example because the word for "house" has been<br>
left out.<br>
<br>
laistidedun afar Iesua fram Galeilaia<br>
"followed Jesus from Galilee" (dative)<br>
<br>
qemun fram þamma swnagogafada<br>
"they came from the ruler of the synagogue" (dative)<br>
<br>
raus fram winda wagidata<br>
"a reed blown by the wind" (dative)<br>
<br>
fram þizai hveilai jainai<br>
"from that time (forth)" (dative)<br>
<br>
ni faraiþ us garda in gard<br>
"don't go from house to house" (dative).<br>
<br>
I couldn't find any examples of 'fram garda'. They just seemed to<br>
prefer 'us garda'.<br>
<br>
us garda Daweidis<br>
"from the house of David"<br>
<br>
But:<br>
<br>
fram þis fauramaþleis swnagogais<br>
"from [the house] of the ruler of the synagogue"<br>
<br>
> > 'goleins' "greeting" is never attested in the plural. The singular<br>
> > form occurs at the end of some of the Epistles of Saint Paul, e.g.<br>
> > 'goleins meinai handau Pawlaus' "the salutation by the hand of me<br>
> > Paul" (I Col 4:18), meaning his signature. The verb from which it's<br>
> > derived also occurs: golja izwis ik Tairtius "I, Tertius, greet you<br>
> > (plural)" (R 16:22).<br>
> > <br>
> > LN<br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> If the singular form goleins is attested and so also the verb goljan. <br>
> Then we probably can assume that goleins would be goleineis in <br>
> plural, right? Since other nouns ending in -eins and made from verbs <br>
> do end in -eineis in plural?<br>
<br>
-einos. Abstract feminine nouns in -eins, -ons and -ains are declined<br>
as i-stems, except that the -eins nouns have nominative and genitive<br>
plural like o-stems: -einos, -eino. So the nominative plural of<br>
'goleins' would be 'goleinos', but whether Gothic speakers used the<br>
word for "greetings" as a greeting, or whether this would have sounded<br>
bizarre to them, is hard to know.<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<span width="1" style="color: white;">__._,_.___</span>
<!-- Start the section with Message In topic -->
<div id="ygrp-actbar">
<span class="left">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/507;_ylc=X3oDMTM0cDFkNnRkBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwMjczBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIyOTM2MzQxMQR0cGNJZAM1MDc-">
Messages in this topic </a> (<span class="bld">24</span>)
</span>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxYmluNnE2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwMjczBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTIyOTM2MzQxMQ--?act=reply&messageNum=10273">
<span class="bld">
Reply </span> (via web post)
</a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbWUyY25tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIyOTM2MzQxMQ--" class="bld">
Start a new topic </a>
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vitnav">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlY2phOTU2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTIyOTM2MzQxMQ--">Messages</a>
| <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJlN2x2M2tnBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA21icnMEc3RpbWUDMTIyOTM2MzQxMQ--">Members</a>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-grft">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<div id="ygrp-mkp">
<div id="hd">MARKETPLACE</div>
<div id="ads">
<div class="ad">
<hr noshade="noshade" size="1"><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ru9jq10/M=493064.12016295.13271503.10835568/D=groups/S=1705739206:MKP1/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1229370611/L=/B=lkK_P0LaX.0-/J=1229363411443229/A=5530388/R=0/SIG=11nuutlas/*http://explore.yahoo.com/groups/kraftmealsmadesimple/">From kitchen basics to easy recipes - join the Group from Kraft Foods
</a> </div>
</div>
</div>
<!-- yahoo logo -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-ft">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNmw0aWFhBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjI5MzYzNDEx">
<img src="http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/yg/img/logo/ma_grp_160.gif" height="15" width="106" border="0" alt="Yahoo! Groups"></a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbHA5a212BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzEyMjkzNjM0MTE-">Change settings via the Web</a> (Yahoo! ID required) <br>
Change settings via email: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest">Switch delivery to Daily Digest</a> | <a href = "mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional">Switch format to Traditional</a> <br>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNDRjdmJ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMjI5MzYzNDEx">
Visit Your Group
</a> |
<a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">
Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use </a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=">
Unsubscribe </a>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background:white;">
<!-- Network content -->
<!-- Start Recommendations -->
<div id="ygrp-reco">
</div>
<!-- End Recommendations -->
<!-- Start vitality -->
<div id="ygrp-vital">
<div id="vithd">Recent Activity</div>
<ul style="list-style-type:none; padding: 0; margin: 2px 0;">
</ul>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcHRiZm1tBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTIyOTM2MzQxMQ--">
Visit Your Group </a>
</div>
<!-- Network content -->
<div id="nc">
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">New business?</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13ofmdkje/M=493064.12016308.12445700.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1229370611/L=/B=mEK_P0LaX.0-/J=1229363411443229/A=3848640/R=0/SIG=131an6mds/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2002&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups1&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50">Get new customers.</a></p>
<p>List your web site</p>
<p>in Yahoo! Search.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">All-Bran</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o6231ta/M=493064.12016283.12445687.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1229370611/L=/B=mUK_P0LaX.0-/J=1229363411443229/A=5202317/R=0/SIG=11aijbghb/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/allbrangroup">Day 10 Club</a></p>
<p>on Yahoo! Groups</p>
<p>Feel better with fiber.</p> </div>
<div class="ad">
<div id="hd1">Y! Groups blog</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o0d5pni/M=493064.12016258.12582637.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1229370611/L=/B=mkK_P0LaX.0-/J=1229363411443229/A=5191955/R=0/SIG=112mhte3e/*http://www.ygroupsblog.com/blog/">the best source</a></p>
<p>for the latest</p>
<p>scoop on Groups.</p> </div>
</div>
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=10273/stime=1229363411/nc1=3848640/nc2=5202317/nc3=5191955" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<span style="color: white;">__,_._,___</span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mkp{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 14px 0px;
padding: 0px 14px;
}
#ygrp-mkp hr{
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}
#ygrp-mkp #hd{
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: bold;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0px;
}
#ygrp-mkp #ads{
margin-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad{
padding: 0 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad a{
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc{
font-family: Arial;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd{
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: bold;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad{
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px; font-family: arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;*font-size:small;*font:x-small;}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;*font-size:100%;}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
#ygrp-text{
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p{
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-tpmsgs{
font-family: Arial;
clear: both;
}
#ygrp-vitnav{
padding-top: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-vitnav a{
padding: 0 1px;
}
#ygrp-actbar{
clear: both;
margin: 25px 0;
white-space:nowrap;
color: #666;
text-align: right;
}
#ygrp-actbar .left{
float: left;
white-space:nowrap;
}
.bld{font-weight:bold;}
#ygrp-grft{
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 77%;
padding: 15px 0;
}
#ygrp-ft{
font-family: verdana;
font-size: 77%;
border-top: 1px solid #666;
padding: 5px 0;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}
#ygrp-reco #reco-head {
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
}
#reco-grpname{
font-weight: bold;
margin-top: 10px;
}
#reco-category{
font-size: 77%;
}
#reco-desc{
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-vital{
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 2px 0 8px 8px;
}
#ygrp-vital #vithd{
font-size: 77%;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: bold;
color: #333;
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#ygrp-vital ul{
padding: 0;
margin: 2px 0;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li{
list-style-type: none;
clear: both;
border: 1px solid #e0ecee;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
font-weight: bold;
color: #ff7900;
float: right;
width: 2em;
text-align:right;
padding-right: .5em;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
font-weight: bold;
}
#ygrp-vital a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-vital a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #hd{
color: #999;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov{
padding: 6px 13px;
background-color: #e0ecee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
font-size: 77%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
text-decoration: none;
font-size: 130%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #nc{
background-color: #eee;
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad{
padding: 8px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
font-family: Arial;
font-weight: bold;
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 100%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
text-decoration: underline;
}
#ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
margin: 0;
}
o{font-size: 0; }
.MsoNormal{
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt{
font-size: 120%;
}
blockquote{margin: 0 0 0 4px;}
.replbq{margin:4}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html><!--End group email -->