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<p><br>
Dear Authari,<br>
<br>
It is indeed an interesting question you put. I have looked in<br>
Hellquist Etymological Dictionary and the word 'schul' is included as<br>
middle low german for shelter, hut, hiding place, in Swedish we say<br>
'skjul' for this. The ending '-landa' is connected with the word<br>
'land', area, firm ground, beach as opposite to sea et c. In the<br>
specifik form '-landa'in farm- or place names it means in Swedish an<br>
area of land used by somebody living there in opposite to land that is<br>
not claimed by anybody particular. As a verb in Sw. landa means to<br>
land with a boat.<br>
<br>
There is a theory among else proposed by Ottar Grønvik that part of<br>
the Crimean Goths were of Lowgerman - but not of Dutch, Saxon or<br>
Jutish - origin - i.e. Westgermanic, but also Scandinavian dialects<br>
are in bottom just both Northgermanic and Lowgermanic. Still there are<br>
some toponyms that to me seem just fitting with Dutch and I can as<br>
well personally think of both Saxon and Jutish. I have written a<br>
little about Gothic toponyms in the Crimea in my book, The Well Spring<br>
of the Goths, and I have had good help by an article and good advice<br>
from professor Alexandra Superanskaya at Academia Naust in Moscow and,<br>
of course, Vasilievs book. I then have tried to draw some simple<br>
conclusions myself of the material.<br>
<br>
I give you some excerpts of the book treating this subject but,<br>
remember, I am not a linguist myself but I rather try to show what<br>
different experts say.<br>
<br>
Best greetings!<br>
Ingemar<br>
<br>
". Busbecq himself saw great similarities with Saxon, and if you look<br>
to the counting-words I mean they are close to both Northgermanic and<br>
Westgermanic in the area of the Netherlands – i.e. they have a<br>
Low-German and Scandinavian similarity of e.g. 31= treithyen och<br>
41=furdeithien. Loewe regarded them as Heruls and Karsten as a mixture<br>
of Ostrogoths and Heruls while Krause means they were Goths mixed with<br>
various Westgermanics. Ernst Schwarz places them among the<br>
Northgermanics. (Høst 1971, p.45)<br>
Mac Donald Stearns jr. has made a thorough analysis of the language<br>
and he puts it together with the Bible-Gothic in the Eastgermanic<br>
language-group, since it deviates from both Northgermanic and<br>
Westgermanic. He refers to that the Goths arrived in the Crimea in the<br>
250's, and it fits with the assumption that the Crimean-Gothic dialect<br>
should have been extracted some time around 200 AD. He remarks that<br>
there is a distinct possibility that loan-words and other renewals<br>
might have come from elsewhere during the passing of time. (Stearns<br>
1978, s. 118 ff. )<br>
<br>
In Nowele 1995 Ottar Grønvik has written a debate-article where he<br>
claims that Crimean Gothic is of Westgermanic origin, and he then goes<br>
out from the latest language-tree variant where Gothic is presupposed<br>
to come directly from Proto-Germanic, while Northgermanic is secondary<br>
developed from North-Westgermanic according to the picture below...<br>
<br>
. In Crimean Gothic the old e1 is represented by i and hence it can<br>
not be of Northgermanic origin, Grønvik claims, but well Westgermanic.<br>
Later the language has developed together with Gothic, and he from<br>
this concludes that a Westgermanic people has taken part in the<br>
migration by the Goths. The origin-area he supports on the single word<br>
kommen, which he means is the only one among the around hundred<br>
words from Busbecq that is useable. It's similarity with German leads<br>
him to place the tribe in the neighbourhood of the Oder or the middle<br>
Elbe, since he because of this word finds it less probable that it is<br>
an ingvaeonic language like Anglo-Frisian or Old Saxon. He also<br>
regards it as a support for polyethnical elements in the Gothic<br>
migration. (Grønvik 1995, p.75 ff)...<br>
<br>
With regard to that Stearns jr indeed classified it as an Eastgermanic<br>
language in the Gothic language-family Grønvik is not quite<br>
convincing. There still exists a possibility that the Crimean Goths<br>
already from the beginning have been of a polyethnical character<br>
including both Vistula-Goths, Northgermanics and Westgermanics, or<br>
that the language in time has been mixed up with new elements. In any<br>
case it is a little too hasty to decide the area of origin to middle<br>
Germany with support of a single word. He tries to strenghten his<br>
argumentation through referring to a paper by Neumann and Düwel 1985,<br>
where they treat an old city- and river-name Greek Aloúston, today<br>
Alušta , on the Crimea. The authors have connected this with OHG.<br>
erila from older elira, OE. alor, OWN. @lr < Germanic *aliz-, *aluz<br>
and mean that it for a place-name is nessecary to add the suffix -ta-<br>
(Germanic *alusta-/*alista-<wbr>, cf.. Lat. arbustum `equipped with<br>
trees'). They refer to the Westphalian river-name Alst (12th c. Alest)<br>
and to the Dutch place-name Aalst (a. 866 Alost) and Elst (a. 911<br>
Eliste). Grønvik's analysis of the wovels, however, seems rather<br>
convincing, but it should in that case as well be possible to<br>
interpret it as Anglo-Frisian. Specially so since Aalst and Elst occur<br>
in the argumentation. I have above suggested that also the Jutes,<br>
Ýtas, 'the outpoured' should be included in the Gothic cultic area,<br>
and then it is in no way preposterous to assume possible connections<br>
with neighbouring Anglic tribes. Grønvik also remarks that e1 in ON. <br>
was a which is found on rune-stones from the 3rd c. and forward, but<br>
how rapidly that developement grasped over all tribes in<br>
South-Scandinavia is still unknown, since the inscriptions often are<br>
judged as a special runic coiné, applicated by rune-masters working<br>
over vast areas. Their evidence-value hence is disputed. Grønvik<br>
however has a clear point when he demonstrates the thinkable size of<br>
the origin-area with polyethnical components in the language. This<br>
indeed strenghtens my thesis, that it was not primarily the language<br>
but the religious origin that united the Goths – they all had an<br>
ancestry from Gaut, the outpourer, they simply were 'the humans',<br>
'the outpoured'. Grønvik indeed later claims that Gaut was an early<br>
name of Óðinn which appeared on the Continent and spread northwards<br>
(Grønvik 1995, p.89 ff), but his arguments are in this case not<br>
convincing regarding that all those peoples/dynasties who claim<br>
ancestry from Gaut also claim to come from the Scandinavian area, or<br>
are confirmed to come from there. There still is a certain strenght in<br>
the suggestion that the Crimean Goths represent an at least partly<br>
polyethnical mixture, if you assume that a considerable number<br>
originally were Ingvaeones, who lived in the outskirts of the Gothic<br>
influence-area, and had longer than the Goths stayed with the old<br>
fertility-cultic habits. This namely could possibly explain why they<br>
never took the Arianism but all the time in the Christian epoch were<br>
loyal to the Romano-Greek church of Constantinople which with<br>
Teodosius became the catholic, universal church. This explanation <br>
concerning polyethnicity also could support that some of them also<br>
might have been Heruls. They emigrated early from Scandinavia and so<br>
they might have been exposed to different linguistic influences on the<br>
Continent before they lined up with the Goths in the Pontic area. They<br>
besides are actually confirmed as Gothic allies and are known to have<br>
lived close to the Ostrogoths/Greutung<wbr>i and were active on the Black<br>
Sea with maritime warfare. They are not counted as Goths from the<br>
beginning, but a number of remaining Heruls well could have been<br>
Gothizised in the same manner as other originally non-Goths, and like<br>
other non-Goths it should be as natural for them to accept the Greek<br>
creed as I suggested for the Ingvaeones. In any case, in my opinion, a<br>
possible Westgermanic people on the Crimea must have an origin west or<br>
north of Germany.<br>
<br>
Concerning the last Crimean Goths Supeanskaya however has an own<br>
opinion. F.A. Braun (1890) has in Zhyvaya Starina told about a<br>
journey he undertook to Mariupol on the northern shore of the Sea of<br>
Asov, whereto the Crimean Greek had been forced to move in 1877 from<br>
the Bakhchisarai-<wbr>region under the impression that Catharina the Great<br>
wanted to protect the Christian against Islam. In reality the<br>
migration weakened the base of the reign of the kahn on the Crimea and<br>
led to a later Russian annectation of the peninsula. Braun searched<br>
for possible Gothic population-remnants<wbr>. There were 25 villages in the<br>
vicinity of Mariupol, where the transferred Greeks lived. Some of them<br>
spoke Greek, other Tatar-languages but nobody spoke a Germanic or<br>
distantly reminding language. Braun however in every village found<br>
several persons he meant were of Gothic etnicity with blond hair, blue<br>
eyes, high-grown and also more corpulent than the Greeks and the<br>
Tatars. One of them had the nick-name Chalbasch – the white-head.<br>
These Superanskay beleives were the last Crimean Goths.<br>
(Superanskaya1995, pers.com.)<br>
A Tataric researcher, Kurtiyev, has found traces after the Goths in i<br>
Uskyt (present Privetnoye). The place Iskyt also was of great interest<br>
out of an ethnographical point of wiew, since the place had name in<br>
two languages, and there were peculiarities in the way of living and<br>
the clothing-habits of the population. There also occured the<br>
person-name Gafrid - probably Gottfrid Superanskaya writes, and she<br>
supposes also that the place-names might refer to the Scyths, since<br>
the Goths were called so in the beginning. She besides points out that<br>
in 1944 all non-Slavs (except of the Karaites) were deported from the<br>
Crimea, and almost all place-names were changed, which she quite<br>
correctly regards as a toponymic genocide. (Superanskaya 1992, p.144 f)<br>
The Goths on the Crimea, Superanskaya means, sometimes may be regarded<br>
as polyethnonyms, since Goths to the Greeks was a collective name of<br>
all Germanic tribes as an opposite to non-Germanics, occasionally also<br>
a tribal union but not nessecarily a Germanic such. This is quite<br>
interesting considering my basic claim the Goths primarily from the<br>
beginning were a cultic league or, else formulated, just a tribal<br>
religious union – not nessecarily a political. Other Gothic ethnonyms<br>
are tetraxites and trapezites but they do not include all Crimean<br>
Goths. The Trapezites have got name after their living-space at the<br>
mountain Trapezus, and some beleive that these Goths have founded the<br>
city Trapezunt on the Caucasian side of the Black Sea. Tetraxites were<br>
those Goths inhabiting the peninsulae Taman and Kertch. Procopius<br>
mentiones them as another ethnical group than the Crimean Goths. Their<br>
capital was Fanagoria close to Anapa, and they shall according to<br>
Procopius have lived at Kertch since 275 AD.<br>
Superanskaya beleives it is possible that tetraxites<br>
(Greek.<wbr>&<wbr>#61556;&#<wbr>61554;<wbr>&<wbr>#61545;&#<wbr>61556;<wbr>) come from <wbr>&<wbr>#61556;&#<wbr>61554;<wbr>&<wbr>#61537;&#<wbr>61562;<wbr>&<wbr>#61541;&#<wbr>61526; tetra: four, fourth taxis:<br>
`class, order, troup'. The Goths were divided in three groups<br>
–Eastgoths, Westgoths and Gepids. The Tetraxites might have been<br>
differed from them rather early, she suggests, and they were divided<br>
from the other Goths through marshes and hence had difficulties to<br>
keep in touch. They accordingly are "the fourth group", she proposes.<br>
Vasilyevsk (1912) compares Tmutarakan in the old Russian sources with<br>
Tetraxites/Tmetraxi<wbr>tei and thinks that the name of this old Russian<br>
princedom might be derived from the name of this Gothic nation.<br>
Vasilyevsk also compares other names on the Taman-peninsula,<br>
Greek.<wbr>&<wbr>#61517;&#<wbr>61537;<wbr>&<wbr>#61554;&#<wbr>61539; and Lat. Matrica, Matercha, to prove the possibility<br>
of such an adaptation. Superanskaya here sees a possibility that this<br>
could explain the mentioning of "the Gothic maidens at the beach of<br>
the blue sea".(Superanskaya 1992, p.145)<br>
Concerning the place-names – the toponyms – she points out the<br>
difficulties with more than 40 languages with many dialects, and that<br>
the Gothic elements in place-names not could be preserved in their<br>
original form, since the Goths not were the first on Crimea. When they<br>
arrived many places had already got their names and other in time got<br>
Turkish names. The single one which is undisputed is Gothia. She<br>
however remarks that the borders of Gothia are differently described<br>
by the authors. Sometimes it is confined to the Belbek-river/<wbr>Kuchuk<br>
Uzenbash/Kap Ai-Thodor, but sometimes the whole southern coast of the<br>
Crimea is included. Many of the places where the Goths lived later got<br>
Turkish names, and here she mentiones Mangup Kale which was the new<br>
name of Doro. It means 'destroyed fortress'. Doros<wbr>&<wbr>#61480;Greek&<wbr>#61486;&#<wbr>61472;<wbr>&<wbr>#61554;&#<wbr>61551;<wbr>,<br>
<wbr>&<wbr>#61540;&#<wbr>61559;<wbr>&<wbr>#61484;&#<wbr>61472;<wbr>&<wbr>#61472;&#<wbr>61521;<wbr>&<wbr>#61540;&#<wbr>61559;<wbr>&<wbr>#61481;&#<wbr>61472;was the capital of the Goths until it was<br>
conquered and destroyed, and the meaning of the name is disputed, but<br>
by all evidents to judge of Greek descent. The oldest Gothic graves<br>
are from the 5th to the 7th cc, and characteristic for all<br>
pre-Christian graves in Gothic areas is, according to Repnikov(1932)<wbr>,<br>
that no weapons have been found. (Superanskaya 1992, p.146)<br>
A Crimean-Gothic name which may be of a certain interest is the word<br>
Fula/Fulli (Greek. <wbr>&<wbr>#61537;&#<wbr>61484;<wbr>&<wbr>#61551;&#<wbr>61557;<wbr>&<wbr>#61537;, <wbr>&<wbr>#61548;&#<wbr>61537;<wbr>). Superanskaya says that<br>
several researchers mean that it only exists one such name, but she<br>
herself has a long list. The for us most interesting are the forms<br>
Pula, Phyle and Thulle. The Romans beleived that Fulla was a legendary<br>
land in the north, and Goethe wrote a ballad about the king living in<br>
Fula/Thule. It is hard to know if all these forms are the same word,<br>
and the Russian letter <wbr>can replace both ph and th Superanskaya<br>
comments. (Superanskaya 1992, p.147)"<br>
<br>
Here, NB, is a really hot spot concerning the original -landa question:<br>
<br>
"There are a considerable number of -sala-names within the Gothic<br>
areas on the Crimea but no Upsala. About these names Superanskaya writes:<br>
The element –sala is of Indo-European origin. It is a place-name. Cf.<br>
the Germanic name Salaber (sala `place, house and ber(th) `perfect,<br>
radiating'). The element –sala takes the first position in the<br>
personal name and the second position in a place-name. Further it<br>
easily might be connected with Turkish elements; Bughaz Sala (bughaz =<br>
mountain-pass)<wbr>, Suuk Sala (suuk = sour), Kodzhasala (kodzha is an<br>
honorary title). (Superanskaya 1992, p.148)<br>
The –sala -names accordingly can not be used to prove a North- or<br>
West-Germanic origin, but still there is a distinct possibility that<br>
some of the –sala-names might be Gothic.<br>
Other toponymic endings in the area are among else -anda, -inda,<br>
-unda, -onda. Examples of such place-names are Avonda/Avunda, Lunda<br>
och Terskunda. Here is according to Superanskaya a similarity with<br>
Germanic, and she writes:<br>
<br>
There are different hypothesis regarding their origin. A.Carnoy (195l,<br>
p.102) mentiones the old French term warande `protected place, park,<br>
fence'. The word is still used in the Netherlands. (Superanskaya 1992,<br>
p.148)<br>
<br>
Here, accordingly, exists a possible connection to a Westgermanic<br>
origin for parts of the Crimean Goths, and then rather an<br>
Anglo-Frisian. It is however not possible to disregard that Rus and<br>
Varjags of supposed Scandinavian origin also have ben extant in the<br>
area later, and hence might have affected the toponymic geography."<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroup<wbr>s.com</a>, "authari" <authari@...<wbr>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hello friends<br>
> Last year we made a wide archeological survey in neighborhood of<br>
> Mangup and Eski-kermen (South-Western Crimea) as a part of RGZM<br>
> project and found some monuments of Migrations period. Some of it is<br>
> situated near Ternovka village.<br>
> There is a cluster of toponimics with root "Shul": old name of<br>
> Ternovka is Shuli (or Eski-Shul; Eski - tatarian old), Shuldan -<br>
> byzantinian cave monastery and Shulanda.<br>
> Shul is not translateble from tatarian.I asked 84-year old local<br>
> tatarian for translation and he said that it means school <br>
> (not surprising - he worked as a driver for geman officer at<br>
> WWII),nobody can translate it now.<br>
> Local specialists of toponimics (Markevich, Bel'ansky) said that it<br>
> could not be translated from turcic languages. More than that names of<br>
> sites in Crimea ending -anda, -inda, -unda seem like ancient<br>
> (Shulanda, Oreanda, Marsanda(later Massandra), Avinda(Avunda)<wbr>.<br>
> Could be Shul-, Shulanda gothic words? (Shuli valley is core Crimean<br>
> gothic area). Do you have gothic etimology for it?<br>
> Google given me only a mess. Is it a name?<br>
> Thanks in advance.<br>
> Best wishes<br>
> PS <br>
> Coords of Shulanda by Google Earth 44°36'19.90"N 33°42'53.27"E<br>
><br>
<br>
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<div class="ct" style="float: right;"><span style="display:none"> </span>2</div>
<div class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMDlnZW80BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEyMzM0OTg5OTQ-">New Members</a></div>
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<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNTBhbzV0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTIzMzQ5ODk5NA--">
Visit Your Group </a>
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<div id="hd1">New web site?</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13oqjfv0l/M=493064.12016308.12445700.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1233506194/L=/B=bFOmNUPDhF0-/J=1233498994698275/A=3848642/R=0/SIG=131eshi2t/*http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2004&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups3&s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50">Drive traffic now.</a></p>
<p>Get your business</p>
<p>on Yahoo! search.</p> </div>
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<div id="hd1">10 Day Club</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13o5d68o7/M=493064.12016283.12445687.8674578/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1233506194/L=/B=bVOmNUPDhF0-/J=1233498994698275/A=5202316/R=0/SIG=11aijbghb/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/allbrangroup">on Yahoo! Groups</a></p>
<p>Share the benefits</p>
<p>of a high fiber diet.</p> </div>
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<div id="hd1">Get in Shape</div>
<p><a href="http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=13po6hcds/M=493064.12016300.12445692.11323196/D=groups/S=1705739206:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1233506194/L=/B=blOmNUPDhF0-/J=1233498994698275/A=5170417/R=0/SIG=11b5gu1oe/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/specialKgroup">on Yahoo! Groups</a></p>
<p>Find a buddy</p>
<p>and lose weight.</p> </div>
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<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div> <img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=10313/stime=1233498994/nc1=3848642/nc2=5202316/nc3=5170417" width="1" height="1"> <br>
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