<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body style="background-color: #fff;">
<span style="display:none"> </span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text" >
<p>Hello Everyone,<br>
<br>
In introduction, I have no 'credentials' as such, but I have<br>
been interested in nomadic peoples for a long time. Most<br>
currently I have been exploring the Cheyenne Indians, Picts,<br>
Scots, Irish and now the Gothic peoples. My emphasis is on<br>
comparisons and statements, often treated trivially, but <br>
which recur in various places and times. You may regard my<br>
ideas as 'wild speculation', no problem.<br>
<br>
On 'Slave and Slavery'. For current discussion, these have<br>
developed too much current cultural baggage and malprops. <br>
In studying any culture the term is used much too often as <br>
a generalization and study of this segment of societies is<br>
flawed thereby.<br>
<br>
My suggestion is to discard the use and examine the central<br>
institution it comes from. Simply, the idea of 'political <br>
control'. Human dominance is a political system and most <br>
central to almost every human society. <br>
<br>
My model is to separate the leaders and the 'lead' at every<br>
opportunity that can be found. The use of several societies<br>
then allows for more effective comparison and some rather <br>
'stunning' comparisons.<br>
<br>
When 'slavery' arouse, my interest was stimulated that it <br>
was/is to easy to bend the social functions of individuals<br>
to fit this generalization. <br>
<br>
In the Cheyenne culture, captive males were limited to very<br>
small children, no males. Captive females occupy a larger <br>
segment and when you check what tasks they occupy and the<br>
protections afforded them you find a gradation ranging from<br>
almost abject servitude to great influence. <br>
<br>
The captive male child was most equivalent to that occupied <br>
by the orphaned male adolescent. They provided services to <br>
some leading male and could attend total mobility from a <br>
dependent status to become a functional independent unit <br>
leader in society. Some argument against this can be found<br>
in white captives, and the Mexican captives, both of which<br>
show influences of their own 'captive treatment of individuals<br>
in society' and most clearly were influenced by the very <br>
active Commanche models. The Commanche model frequently<br>
adapted male captives into a 'herder drone' or a 'suicide<br>
warrior' model. Sorry for this digression.<br>
<br>
In my comparison though the Cheyenne captive/orphan model<br>
shows obvious similarities to the 'fosterage' system of the<br>
Norse Gaelic Culture of the time of Somerled to Thorkill. <br>
The Somerled type of 'fosterage' apparently has an ancient<br>
heritage and continued to relatively recent times. In fact, <br>
it developed a reversal role for many chief's sons, who were<br>
fostered by loyal retainers. <br>
<br>
To belabor the point, the orphan and male captive treatment<br>
is theses societies show their economic position is political <br>
and cultural. The political support system becomes a building <br>
block to use in examining the structure of peoples. My point<br>
is subservience and 'service' is to easily categorized as<br>
slavery. The one time visit of an individual minimalizes the<br>
relative relationships. Hence slavery is seen, when it may not<br>
exist as such. <br>
<br>
Quick, more current examples would be the Blackfoot 'multiple<br>
wife/squaw' marriages in which non-leading females were economic<br>
slaves of the fur trade. A Gaelic example of the economic <br>
termination of the 'fosterage' system is the 'broken men and <br>
clans'. So, economic utility to support 'leadership types'<br>
is the building block of society. Prime examples can be found<br>
in current elitist society today.<br>
<br>
So these comparisons go from Cheyenne, almost modern world, to <br>
the Norse Gaelic, almost tribalistic chieftainship. This makes<br>
me believe that the Nordic connection is rather simple to use<br>
in the Gothic/Germanic Roman era and by extension to almost any<br>
political group of the 'civilization eras'. Argumentatively, I <br>
do NOT include the Chinese cultures (not enough personal data <br>
comparisons made), though I would the Mongolic nomads.<br>
<br>
Having made a political empirical model for human behavior and<br>
discarded the use of 'modern cultural taint' of the use of 'slave/<br>
slavery. I did see some hints that offer some interesting chains<br>
of thought.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=slave">http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=slave</a><br>
<br>
Notice this part: *orbu, from the PIE base *orbh- (also source <br>
of orphan) the ground sense of which seems to be "thing that <br>
changes allegiance". This hit me like a stone.<br>
<br>
Most wildly/unfounded, but open to further study/thought. <br>
"The Slavic words for "slave" (Rus. rab, Serbo-Croatian rob, <br>
O.C.S. rabu) are from O.Slav. *orbu, from the PIE base *orbh- <br>
(also source of orphan) the ground sense of which seems to be <br>
"thing that changes allegiance" (in the case of the slave, from <br>
himself to his master). The Slavic word is also the source of robot". <br>
<br>
This usage of words brought me to a further questioning thought.<br>
Simplistic and febrile at best, but I lept from Slav to the Khazar <br>
culture by the comparison of rab/rob to rabe/i in current Jewish<br>
use. Backwards comparison is the Khazars converted to Judaism and<br>
shared much of the territory of the semi-nomadic Slavs. This is<br>
heavy speculation, but nags me by the data supplied by Wolfram in <br>
"History of the Goths" of "Wulfila" and christianity. I have <br>
'issues' with his depiction of this individual, the Jewish religion,<br>
and the concurrent political scheme set of the Gothic political <br>
system he presented.<br>
<br>
Feel free to dismiss any/all of this. Not having an 'academic<br>
credential' to hang this thought stream on, I am more interested<br>
in the negative viewpoints than positive. <br>
<br>
I have been most stimulated by parts of the discourse on the Goths<br>
and of course, disagree as much as agree, with much of it. Still,<br>
I am inclined to believe the 'barbarity' of political leadership<br>
systems and that simplicity has led to a 'freer movement' of <br>
individuals versed in it, not the languages/cultures. Thus, I can<br>
readily believe that 'individual' Gothic types freely migrated <br>
throughout their world and heavily influenced the future by taking<br>
political leadership. The barbarian deals with basic realities, <br>
while the philosopher, historian and religious types taint their<br>
observations with cultural models that bend the truth.<br>
<br>
Thanks, DragoonDelight (used primarily as my personal name is the<br>
same as another in the group and this allows hopefully for no name<br>
conflict statements).<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div>
<div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;">
<div>
<a href="mailto:GoonieHome1@verizon.net?subject=Re%3A%20Introduction%20and%20ramble" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;">
Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Introduction%20and%20ramble">
Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxOGczZWdtBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwNjIxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMwOTk1NDQzMA--?act=reply&messageNum=10621">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYzlydmhlBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMwOTk1NDQzMA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a>
</div>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/10621;_ylc=X3oDMTM2b2U3bXJuBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwNjIxBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMwOTk1NDQzMAR0cGNJZAMxMDYyMQ--">Messages in this topic</a>
(<span style="font-weight: 700;">1</span>)
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;">
<span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span>
<ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;">
<li style="border-right: 1px solid #000; font-weight: 700; display: inline; padding: 0 5px; margin-left: 0;">
<span class="cat"><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdG8waWpvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZtYnJzBHN0aW1lAzEzMDk5NTQ0Mjk-?o=6" style="text-decoration: none;">New Members</a></span>
<span class="ct" style="color: #ff7900;">1</span>
</li>
</ul>
<div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcWdiZzM0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMwOTk1NDQyOQ--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a>
</div>
</div>
<div id="ygrp-grfd" style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 12px; padding: 15px 0;">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkZzZncTZ1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzA5OTU0NDMw" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! Groups" style="border: 0;"/></a>
<div style="color: #747575; float: right;">Switch to: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional" style="text-decoration: none;">Text-Only</a>, <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest" class="margin-rt" style="text-decoration: none;">Daily Digest</a> • <a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe" style="text-decoration: none;">Unsubscribe</a> • <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/" style="text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a></div>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;">
<!-- Start Recommendations -->
<div id="ygrp-reco">
</div>
<!-- End Recommendations -->
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div>
<img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=10621/stime=1309954430/nc1=1/nc2=2/nc3=3" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mkp {
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 10px 0;
padding: 0 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp hr {
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}
#ygrp-mkp #hd {
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: 700;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp #ads {
margin-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad {
padding: 0 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad p {
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad a {
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc {
font-family: Arial;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd {
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: 700;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad {
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}
a {
color: #1e66ae;
}
#actions {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 11px;
padding: 10px 0;
}
#activity {
background-color: #e0ecee;
float: left;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
padding: 10px;
}
#activity span {
font-weight: 700;
}
#activity span:first-child {
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#activity span a {
color: #5085b6;
text-decoration: none;
}
#activity span span {
color: #ff7900;
}
#activity span .underline {
text-decoration: underline;
}
.attach {
clear: both;
display: table;
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 12px;
padding: 10px 0;
width: 400px;
}
.attach div a {
text-decoration: none;
}
.attach img {
border: none;
padding-right: 5px;
}
.attach label {
display: block;
margin-bottom: 5px;
}
.attach label a {
text-decoration: none;
}
blockquote {
margin: 0 0 0 4px;
}
.bold {
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 13px;
font-weight: 700;
}
.bold a {
text-decoration: none;
}
dd.last p a {
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}
dd.last p span {
margin-right: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}
dd.last p span.yshortcuts {
margin-right: 0;
}
div.attach-table div div a {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.attach-table {
width: 400px;
}
div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
font-weight: normal;
}
.green {
color: #628c2a;
}
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
o {
font-size: 0;
}
#photos div {
float: left;
width: 72px;
}
#photos div div {
border: 1px solid #666666;
height: 62px;
overflow: hidden;
width: 62px;
}
#photos div label {
color: #666666;
font-size: 10px;
overflow: hidden;
text-align: center;
white-space: nowrap;
width: 64px;
}
#reco-category {
font-size: 77%;
}
#reco-desc {
font-size: 77%;
}
.replbq {
margin: 4px;
}
#ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
/* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/
margin-right: 2px;
padding-right: 5px;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size: 13px;
font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif;
*font-size: small;
*font: x-small;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size: inherit;
font: 100%;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {
font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {
font:115% monospace;
*font-size:100%;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height: 1.22em;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo {
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg a {
color: #1E66AE;
}
#ygrp-msg p a {
font-family: Verdana;
}
#ygrp-msg p#attach-count span {
color: #1E66AE;
font-weight: 700;
}
#ygrp-reco #reco-head {
color: #ff7900;
font-weight: 700;
}
#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a {
font-size: 130%;
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li {
font-size: 77%;
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul {
margin: 0;
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-text {
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p {
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt {
font-size: 120%;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right: none !important;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html>
<!-- end group email -->