<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body style="background-color: #fff;">
<span style="display:none"> </span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text" >
<p>Thank you Andreas! <br>
<br>
You are a steady rock to lean towards when troublesome questions appear!<br>
<br>
All the best<br>
Ingemar<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, "Andreas Schwarcz" <andreas.schwarcz@...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Dear Ingemar,<br>
> No,it was not in use before the Visigoths became <br>
> catholics, and some suppose that it was introduced <br>
> by Chindasvinth. But José Orlandis already refers to <br>
> a citation of unctioned bishops and kings in <br>
> Isidore's De rebus ecclesiasticis before 631 C.E. <br>
> and thought it probable that already Liuva II, the <br>
> son of Reccared, was unctioned.<br>
> <br>
> All the best,<br>
> Andreas<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> "-"<br>
> ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz<br>
> Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung<br>
> Universität Wien<br>
> Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1<br>
> A 1010 Wien<br>
> Austria<br>
> Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16<br>
> Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72<br>
> andreas.schwarcz@...<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On 12 Feb 2012 at 17:59, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > Hi Andreas!<br>
> > <br>
> > I did not grasp the meaning of unction but now I have checked. I should <br>
> > have done it before of course. Still it is evidently a ceremonie that <br>
> > was not in use in Arian times as far as I grasp.<br>
> > <br>
> > Best wishes<br>
> > Ingemar<br>
> > <br>
> > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, "Andreas Schwarcz" <br>
> > <andreas.schwarcz@> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Wamba was indeed the first king of the Visigoths for <br>
> > > whom the ceremony of unction is expressedly <br>
> > > attested, but alreeady the canones of the IVth <br>
> > > council of Toledo in 633 imply that the kings were <br>
> > > unctioned as part of their accession to the throne <br>
> > > after the example of king David.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > All the best,<br>
> > > Andreas<br>
> > > <br>
> > > "-"<br>
> > > ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz<br>
> > > Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung<br>
> > > Universität Wien<br>
> > > Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1<br>
> > > A 1010 Wien<br>
> > > Austria<br>
> > > Tel.0043/1/42-77-272-16<br>
> > > Fax 0043/1/42-77-92-72<br>
> > > andreas.schwarcz@<br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > On 12 Feb 2012 at 12:29, Ingemar Nordgren wrote:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > There are several legends about Wamba and it is definitely not the <br>
> > usual <br>
> > > > way a Visigothic king was appointed. Some details even seem to be <br>
> > part <br>
> > > > of the trubadour tradition from Provence which later continues in <br>
> > the <br>
> > > > stories of King Arthur like the hunt of the hind. Also in the <br>
> > Didriks <br>
> > > > saga the same story of the hunt is recognizeable and it has as well <br>
> > > > roots in the Bysantine tradition. I would pay no heed to that <br>
> > story.This <br>
> > > > was as well late in the Visigothic era and the kings now, since <br>
> > Reccared <br>
> > > > had claimed to be king of Gods grace, were Catholic and not Arian <br>
> > and <br>
> > > > the church had a strong position with the very conservative Catholic <br>
> > > > Councils in Toledo persecuting both Arians and Jews. A saintly king <br>
> > > > suited well into the picture. <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Welcome to the list. I as well hope we can discuss much history and <br>
> > not <br>
> > > > only language. It is a little peculiar that we discuss much more <br>
> > Gothic <br>
> > > > history on Germanic list than on Gothic where it indeed should be <br>
> > > > discussed.<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Best greetings<br>
> > > > Ingemar<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, "indiejones46" <indiana.jones465@> <br>
> > > > wrote:<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Hi,<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > I am new to this group and first wanted to introduce myself.<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > My name is Alex and i am interested in Gothic history (especially <br>
> > > > after reading a book on Alaric the Great). I have a background in <br>
> > > > archaeology (degree) and attend excavations in my spare time.<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > I feel i am just starting out on learning about the 'Goth's' and <br>
> > find <br>
> > > > this Forum useful. So thank you.<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > I wondered if i could throw out a question that has been <br>
> > intriguing me <br>
> > > > since i read about this. This is the 'unction' (right word?) of <br>
> > Wamba <br>
> > > > into a King. Is this the first king of the Visigothic race who was <br>
> > > > 'crowned' in this way? The description i read of the ceremonial rite <br>
> > > > seems exceedingly strange.<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > Does anyone here have a view on this? <br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > I would be most interested in discussing this further, of course, <br>
> > if <br>
> > > > others wish to as well.<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > Alex<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
> > ><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div>
<div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;">
<div>
<a href="mailto:ingemar@nordgren.se?subject=Re%3A%20Introduction%20and%20King%20Wamba" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;">
Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20Introduction%20and%20King%20Wamba">
Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxbjNpdW1lBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwNzU5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMyOTA5MTE4Nw--?act=reply&messageNum=10759">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMmFqb2VwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyOTA5MTE4Nw--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a>
</div>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/10753;_ylc=X3oDMTM2MHNhMGZzBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwNzU5BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMyOTA5MTE4NwR0cGNJZAMxMDc1Mw--">Messages in this topic</a>
(<span style="font-weight: 700;">6</span>)
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;">
<span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span>
<ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;">
</ul>
<div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJldWdvZ2dmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMyOTA5MTE4Nw--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a>
</div>
</div>
<div id="ygrp-grfd" style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 12px; padding: 15px 0;">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkNXBtODk4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzI5MDkxMTg3" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! Groups" style="border: 0;"/></a>
<div style="color: #747575; float: right;">Switch to: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional" style="text-decoration: none;">Text-Only</a>, <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest" class="margin-rt" style="text-decoration: none;">Daily Digest</a> • <a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe" style="text-decoration: none;">Unsubscribe</a> • <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/" style="text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a></div>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;">
<!-- Start Recommendations -->
<div id="ygrp-reco">
</div>
<!-- End Recommendations -->
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div>
<img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=10759/stime=1329091187/nc1=5758221/nc2=3848641/nc3=5028926" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mkp {
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 10px 0;
padding: 0 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp hr {
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}
#ygrp-mkp #hd {
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: 700;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp #ads {
margin-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad {
padding: 0 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad p {
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad a {
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc {
font-family: Arial;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd {
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: 700;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad {
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}
a {
color: #1e66ae;
}
#actions {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 11px;
padding: 10px 0;
}
#activity {
background-color: #e0ecee;
float: left;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
padding: 10px;
}
#activity span {
font-weight: 700;
}
#activity span:first-child {
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#activity span a {
color: #5085b6;
text-decoration: none;
}
#activity span span {
color: #ff7900;
}
#activity span .underline {
text-decoration: underline;
}
.attach {
clear: both;
display: table;
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 12px;
padding: 10px 0;
width: 400px;
}
.attach div a {
text-decoration: none;
}
.attach img {
border: none;
padding-right: 5px;
}
.attach label {
display: block;
margin-bottom: 5px;
}
.attach label a {
text-decoration: none;
}
blockquote {
margin: 0 0 0 4px;
}
.bold {
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 13px;
font-weight: 700;
}
.bold a {
text-decoration: none;
}
dd.last p a {
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}
dd.last p span {
margin-right: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}
dd.last p span.yshortcuts {
margin-right: 0;
}
div.attach-table div div a {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.attach-table {
width: 400px;
}
div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
font-weight: normal;
}
.green {
color: #628c2a;
}
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
o {
font-size: 0;
}
#photos div {
float: left;
width: 72px;
}
#photos div div {
border: 1px solid #666666;
height: 62px;
overflow: hidden;
width: 62px;
}
#photos div label {
color: #666666;
font-size: 10px;
overflow: hidden;
text-align: center;
white-space: nowrap;
width: 64px;
}
#reco-category {
font-size: 77%;
}
#reco-desc {
font-size: 77%;
}
.replbq {
margin: 4px;
}
#ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
/* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/
margin-right: 2px;
padding-right: 5px;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size: 13px;
font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif;
*font-size: small;
*font: x-small;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size: inherit;
font: 100%;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {
font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {
font:115% monospace;
*font-size:100%;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height: 1.22em;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo {
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg a {
color: #1E66AE;
}
#ygrp-msg p a {
font-family: Verdana;
}
#ygrp-msg p#attach-count span {
color: #1E66AE;
font-weight: 700;
}
#ygrp-reco #reco-head {
color: #ff7900;
font-weight: 700;
}
#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a {
font-size: 130%;
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li {
font-size: 77%;
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul {
margin: 0;
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-text {
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p {
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt {
font-size: 120%;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right: none !important;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html>
<!-- end group email -->