<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body style="background-color: #fff;">
<span style="display:none"> </span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text" >
<p>About whether some early Gothic Christians would have preferred "fagino" <br>
(rejoice) to "hails": now that the matter has been mentioned, it does seem <br>
plausible; for it translates the Greek chaire literally, and Wulfila is often <br>
very literal in his renditions of the NT Greek. As for the use of "hail" <br>
to refer to worldly luck and military success, such a noun use occurs in <br>
both German and Old Norse. I give below some further facts excavated from <br>
dictionaries:<br>
<br>
Cleasby and Vigfusson's Icelandic-English Dictionary, which is primarily <br>
about the old tongue, includes versions of both the Germanic "holy" words <br>
that have been mooted: they appear as "vígja" i.e. vigja with an acute accent <br>
on the first vowel, in case it gets corrupted in transmission, which is <br>
said to mean "consecrate" both in a Christian and in a non-Christian sense; <br>
and "heilagr" (the consonant at the end is inflexive) which means "holy", <br>
again in either a Christian or a non-Christian sense. The word is said to be <br>
derived from "heill" (whole) and to be consequently not so old as the <br>
primitive vé, veihs.<br>
<br>
"Heilagr" is also said to have been used as a lawterm to mean inviolable, <br>
one whose person is sacred, with the comment that this is undoubtedly the <br>
word's original sense.<br>
<br>
The Oxford English Dictionary under "holy" has the interesting remark that <br>
the word's sense "is expressed in the Gothic of Ulfilas by weihs (but <br>
hailag, apparently 'consecrated', 'dedicated' is read on a runic inscription <br>
generally held to be Gothic)".<br>
<br>
Less helpfully, the OED adds that "we cannot in Old English get behind <br>
Christian senses in which "holy" is equated with Latin sanctus, sacer".<br>
<br>
Gerry T.<br>
<br>
<br>
In a message dated 03/06/2012 23:59:45 GMT Daylight Time, <br>
<a href="mailto:marja-e%40riseup.net">marja-e@riseup.net</a> writes:<br>
<br>
Thank you!<br>
<br>
That gets to another point - D.H. Green discusses how Wulfila almost<br>
exclusively refers to weihs and avoids hailags, and upper German texts<br>
use wih, while Anglo-Saxon and low/middle German texts almost<br>
exclusively refer to heilag. He argues that Wulfila chose weihs because<br>
hailags was associated with worldly luck and military victory.<br>
<br>
That leaves me wondering how early Gothic Christians would have felt<br>
about the greeting hails/haila/hailata. In these contexts, of course,<br>
it's Roman soldiers mocking Jesus. Perhaps some early Gothic Christians<br>
might have preferred fagino, and their pagan contemporaries might have<br>
used either or both greetings? Just a thought.<br>
<br>
On Sun, 2012-06-03 at 07:05 -0400, <a href="mailto:Grsartor%40aol.com">Grsartor@aol.com</a> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> A small discovery about the "hails" construction:<br>
> <br>
> remember that it occurs twice, in Mark and in John:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> hails ţiudan Iudaie - Mark 15:18 - Hail, [o] King of the Jews.<br>
> hails ţiudans Iudaie - John 19:3 - Hail [the] King of the Jews.<br>
> <br>
> I wondered why John's version did not seem to have "king" as a<br>
> vocative, <br>
> and thought it might be due to carelessness. In a sense there was <br>
> carelessness: my own. If I had bothered to check the Greek in John's<br>
> version I should <br>
> have seen that it says<br>
> <br>
> hail (chaire - an imperative) the king of the Jews.<br>
> <br>
> But whereas John had the king word in the nominative (basileus) Mark<br>
> had it <br>
> in the vocative (basileu) and with no definite article. It therefore<br>
> looks <br>
> as if Wulfila was faithful to the material he translated, and the two <br>
> lines given above have been correctly transmitted to us.<br>
> <br>
> Incidentally, I wondered about the correctness of the Greek here,<br>
> since the <br>
> language the New Testament was written in is said to be often poor - <br>
> "impoverished and crippled" as a former Bishop of Birmingham put it,<br>
> though I am <br>
> not myself advanced enough to notice its deficiencies. I checked<br>
> Mark's <br>
> version in Vincent Taylor's Greek Text of Mark, and reproduce below<br>
> part of <br>
> what appears there, without pretending that I fully understand it:<br>
> <br>
> chaire, basileu corresponds to the Latin greeting Ave Caesar. The <br>
> vocative, which admits the royal right... is 'a note of the writer's<br>
> imperfect <br>
> sensibility to the more delicate shades of Greek idiom', Moulton,<br>
> i.71.<br>
> <br>
> Gerry T.<br>
> <br>
> In a message dated 01/06/2012 04:00:06 GMT Daylight Time, <br>
> <a href="mailto:r_scherp%40yahoo.com">r_scherp@yahoo.com</a> writes:<br>
> <br>
> Hails!<br>
> <br>
> Well, the opinions vary. I think we also have to distinguish between <br>
> adjective and noun. In 'Verit heilir' the word clearly appears as an<br>
> adjective. <br>
> In German, however, 'Heil' seems to be used primarily as a noun that<br>
> calls <br>
> for the dative: 'Heil dir'. The examples Gerry posted seem to indicate<br>
> a <br>
> similar usage, but with an accusative instead of dative. Is that a<br>
> valid <br>
> interpretation?<br>
> <br>
> Randulfs<br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, Thomas Ruhm <thomas@...> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > In other languages greetings and other frequently used expressions<br>
> with <br>
> not much meaning the singular can be generalized.<br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------------<br>
> <br>
> You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank<br>
> email <br>
> to <<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe%40egroups.com">gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com</a>>.Yahoo! Groups Links<br>
> <br>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
<br>
------------------------------------<br>
<br>
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email <br>
to <<a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe%40egroups.com">gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com</a>>.Yahoo! Groups Links<br>
<br>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div>
<div id="ygrp-actbar" style="clear: both; margin-bottom: 10px; white-space: nowrap; color: #666; padding-top: 15px;">
<div>
<a href="mailto:Grsartor@aol.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bgothic-l%5D%20Re%3A%20Greeting%20Hails" style="margin-right: 0; padding-right: 0;">
Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">sender</span></a> |
<a href="mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bgothic-l%5D%20Re%3A%20Greeting%20Hails">
Reply to <span style="font-weight: 700;">group</span></a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxOHY5YmJ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwODUyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTMzODgzMjQwNA--?act=reply&messageNum=10852">Reply <span style="font-weight: 700;">via web post</span></a> |
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlMTk4Z3ZxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMzODgzMjQwNA--" style="font-weight: 700;">Start a New Topic</a>
</div>
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/10837;_ylc=X3oDMTM2aGx1aGw1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzEwODUyBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTMzODgzMjQwNAR0cGNJZAMxMDgzNw--">Messages in this topic</a>
(<span style="font-weight: 700;">15</span>)
</div>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #e0ecee; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;">
<span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; ">Recent Activity:</span>
<ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;">
</ul>
<div style="clear: both; padding-top: 2px; color: #1e66ae;">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlY2NvMnJ2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTMzODgzMjQwNA--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a>
</div>
</div>
<div id="ygrp-grfd" style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 12px; padding: 15px 0;">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYjBzdTlsBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzM4ODMyNDA0" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/a/i/us/yg/logo/us.gif" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! Groups" style="border: 0;"/></a>
<div style="color: #747575; float: right;">Switch to: <a href="mailto:gothic-l-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change Delivery Format: Traditional" style="text-decoration: none;">Text-Only</a>, <a href="mailto:gothic-l-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest" class="margin-rt" style="text-decoration: none;">Daily Digest</a> • <a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe" style="text-decoration: none;">Unsubscribe</a> • <a href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/" style="text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a></div>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;">
<!-- Start Recommendations -->
<div id="ygrp-reco">
</div>
<!-- End Recommendations -->
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div>
<img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=10852/stime=1338832404/nc1=3848640/nc2=5028925/nc3=5898818" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mkp {
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 10px 0;
padding: 0 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp hr {
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}
#ygrp-mkp #hd {
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: 700;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp #ads {
margin-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad {
padding: 0 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad p {
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad a {
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc {
font-family: Arial;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd {
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: 700;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad {
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}
a {
color: #1e66ae;
}
#actions {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 11px;
padding: 10px 0;
}
#activity {
background-color: #e0ecee;
float: left;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
padding: 10px;
}
#activity span {
font-weight: 700;
}
#activity span:first-child {
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#activity span a {
color: #5085b6;
text-decoration: none;
}
#activity span span {
color: #ff7900;
}
#activity span .underline {
text-decoration: underline;
}
.attach {
clear: both;
display: table;
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 12px;
padding: 10px 0;
width: 400px;
}
.attach div a {
text-decoration: none;
}
.attach img {
border: none;
padding-right: 5px;
}
.attach label {
display: block;
margin-bottom: 5px;
}
.attach label a {
text-decoration: none;
}
blockquote {
margin: 0 0 0 4px;
}
.bold {
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 13px;
font-weight: 700;
}
.bold a {
text-decoration: none;
}
dd.last p a {
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}
dd.last p span {
margin-right: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}
dd.last p span.yshortcuts {
margin-right: 0;
}
div.attach-table div div a {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.attach-table {
width: 400px;
}
div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
font-weight: normal;
}
.green {
color: #628c2a;
}
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
o {
font-size: 0;
}
#photos div {
float: left;
width: 72px;
}
#photos div div {
border: 1px solid #666666;
height: 62px;
overflow: hidden;
width: 62px;
}
#photos div label {
color: #666666;
font-size: 10px;
overflow: hidden;
text-align: center;
white-space: nowrap;
width: 64px;
}
#reco-category {
font-size: 77%;
}
#reco-desc {
font-size: 77%;
}
.replbq {
margin: 4px;
}
#ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
/* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/
margin-right: 2px;
padding-right: 5px;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size: 13px;
font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif;
*font-size: small;
*font: x-small;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size: inherit;
font: 100%;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {
font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {
font:115% monospace;
*font-size:100%;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height: 1.22em;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo {
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg a {
color: #1E66AE;
}
#ygrp-msg p a {
font-family: Verdana;
}
#ygrp-msg p#attach-count span {
color: #1E66AE;
font-weight: 700;
}
#ygrp-reco #reco-head {
color: #ff7900;
font-weight: 700;
}
#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a {
font-size: 130%;
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li {
font-size: 77%;
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul {
margin: 0;
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-text {
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p {
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt {
font-size: 120%;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right: none !important;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html>
<!-- end group email -->