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<p>Just read Dumézil! In the 1st c.they have had a cultic place for Freya at Jutland (Neumann 1982)In the 500's there is fight between Scilfings and Gauts/Geats in Västergötland as well.<br>
<br>
Ingemar<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, Tore Gannholm <tore@...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Ingemar,<br>
> where is " it is evident they all were up here already during at least the pre Roman IA."<br>
> <br>
> Do you mean Västergötland?<br>
> <br>
> Tore<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> 30 jul 2012 kl. 15:58 skrev ingemarn2000:<br>
> <br>
> > Tore!<br>
> > <br>
> > I noice you quoted an old paper of mine:<br>
> > <br>
> > "In the 300s the Vanir and Æsir cults existed together in present day Romania,<br>
> > practiced by the Goths, "Gutþiuða", and their allies the Heruls, and finally<br>
> > with the immigration of the Heruls to the Lake Mälar, the cults emerged combined<br>
> > in Scandinavia. The fertility cult never vanished, but was completed with and<br>
> > overrun by the Æsir cult, which nominally won, but in practice they shared in<br>
> > half between Oðin and Freja who reigned together, but were not married."<br>
> > <br>
> > Later I have studied this far deeper as you know and it is evident they all were up here already during at least the pre Roman IA. What happened around 500 is simply that the Roman influenced variant headed by the chief god Odin, a new name of an older god, replaced the older type of this religion and changed the sacrificial meton cycle from 19 to 8 years. Gods changed names in some cases but still they were vanir and aesir both before and after. Religious fights however I can agree to but not only in the Baltic region.This new religion started to expand up here long before the Heruls but it did not take over quite until about 475.<br>
> > <br>
> > Ingemar <br>
> > <br>
> > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, Tore Gannholm <tore@> wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Religious Wars?<br>
> > > The fact that we encounter such a large amount of gold on Gotland from the late Migration Period, early Vendel era means not only that the island was a rich country, where the values have largely made their way from the outside. Something special has occurred, which led the population to hide their most precious treasures in the soil. The coins show that the gold deposition occurred during a comparatively limited stage, between 500 and 560. The other two large Baltic islands, Öland and Bornholm have also gold deposits from that period. For their part the coins indicate a period which, on Öland cover the period 450-490 and on Bornholm 475-525. The majority of the coins on Öland seem to have come from Hungary and Germany.<br>
> > > At the middle of the 5th century, after the death of Attila, the Heruli had founded a kingdom in Upper Hungary. When Odoacer in 476 overthrew the Western Roman Empire a large part of his army consisted of Heruli. After the Ostrogoths had overthrown Odoacer and the Lombards had beaten the Heruli kingdom in Upper Hungary, some of the Heruli, after being displaced, about the year 505 moved to Scandinavia, Thule (see note 13).<br>
> > > A couple of events, at that time, on Gotland give indication of disturbances. It is the destruction of a number of the old historic houses. It is the ca 100 ancient forts, and the approximately 1800 major foundations, which for some reason have been called "Kämpgravar", but are huge houses, very reminiscent of old Roman imperial basilicas. As the figure 1800 refers only to those foundations that have been preserved and discovered in our days, the figure originally may have been higher, because many foundations have probably over the last few centuries been destroyed by cultivation or otherwise.<br>
> > > In terms of Gotland as a whole, it is obvious that almost all the farms that exist at the first mapping of the island, and which also remain today, have a Viking Age past. Many, if not an overwhelming majority of those farms, would also have its origins in the Iron Age farms from the beginning of our era. In other words, a two thousand year old history is reflected in the Gotlandic farms.<br>
> > > Surveys so far, show that some "Kämpgravar" have been abandoned at the same time as many gold treasures have been hidden in the earth. There is thus a clear connection between these two occurrences, gold treasures and abandon of buildings. The scientifically excavated foundations have also in many cases proved to have been burnt, which gives further support to the idea of a disastrous past. Gotland has therefore in the first half of the 6th century suffered a great affliction, which had such serious consequences that earlier urban areas only in modern times have again been cultivated and put into use.<br>
> > > It can thus be regarded as fairly certain that violent upheavals have taken place on Gotland during the first part of the 6th Century. On Öland the event had so disastrous effects that the development hastily was hampered for several hundreds of years. So bad was it apparently not for Gotland. Cemeteries, which show a decline in the 6th century, have sharply grown during the 600s and 700s. From various factors it is clear that the Gotlandic community recovered quickly and strongly after the disasters in the 6th Century. Gotland has even become strong enough to expand the borders of their area with new trading emporiums on the Baltic coasts in the east.<br>
> > > The Goths who had inherited the Vanir cult became influenced by eastern cults. In the 300s the Vanir and Æsir cults existed together in present day Romania, practiced by the Goths, "Gutþiuða", and their allies the Heruls, and finally with the immigration of the Heruls to the Lake Mälar, the cults emerged combined in Scandinavia. The fertility cult never vanished, but was completed with and overrun by the Æsir cult, which nominally won, but in practice they shared in half between Oðin and Freja who reigned together, but were not married. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > 30 jul 2012 kl. 15:10 skrev Abrigon:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > > So they was pre-Germanic or ...<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Agreed on the Vanir seem to be more human and close to people, and the<br>
> > > > Aesir to be more warlike and ...<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Almost like you had two groups meet and merge, or maybe like how<br>
> > > > Christianity was explained to people, using earlier Pagan ideas and it<br>
> > > > still shows at times..<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Mike<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 5:05 AM, ingemarn2000 <ingemar@> wrote:<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > > The Vanir were fertility and vegetation divinities closer to the humans<br>
> > > > > than the Aesir who were heaven gods. Still some of the Vanir had functions<br>
> > > > > similar to the Aesir. They definitely not were Germanic or Celtic tribes<br>
> > > > > and they existed already at least 1400 BCE in this combination in the<br>
> > > > > Middle East. Both Greeks, Romans, Celts and Germanics have been influenced<br>
> > > > > by this old religion but the Gods, however, got other names.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Ingemar<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
> > ><br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
><br>
<br>
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