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<p>Sorry to harp. Here is why I think that "fulhan" rather than "filhada" was <br>
right:<br>
<br>
The formula "it is written" occurs repeatedly in the New Testament, and is <br>
expressed by Wulfila as "gameliþ ist" or "gamelid ist". Example:<br>
<br>
Matt 11:10 sa ist auk bi þanei gameliþ ist: sai, ik insandja aggilu <br>
meinana faura þus, saei gamanweiþ wig þeinana faura þus. <br>
<br>
This is he of whom it is written,<br>
<br>
"Behold, I send my messenger before thy face,<br>
who shall prepare thy way before thee."<br>
<br>
There are many other examples, such as Mark 1:2, Mark 7:6, Luke 2:23, 3:4, <br>
4:4, 4:8.<br>
<br>
It is clear, then, that to the question "where is the word of the prophet" <br>
a possible answer would be<br>
<br>
gameliþ [ist] in malmin - [it is] written in the sand,<br>
<br>
Gothic, like English, using a past participle.<br>
<br>
And so, if the question is "where is our heritage", as in the poem we have <br>
been concerned with, an answer like "buried in ..." would surely contain <br>
"buried" as a past participle, wherefore my belief that the original <br>
"fulhan" was right.<br>
<br>
Now let us consider Edmund's counterexample:<br>
<br>
"hwana wileith ei fraletau izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada <br>
Xristus?" (Mat. 27,17)<br>
'Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus, who is called <br>
Christ?'<br>
<br>
Here, the present passive (haitada) may have been chosen because the sense <br>
was that Christos is what people keep calling him. On the other hand, "it <br>
is written" refers to something written once and for all. I think the <br>
latter example is more relevant to the answer for what has happened to our <br>
heritage: it has been buried once and for all, rather than that people keep <br>
burying it.<br>
<br>
A look at the original Greek perhaps supports my conjecture. For <br>
corresponding to Edmund's quoted "saei haitada Xristus" it has "ton legomenon <br>
Christon", meaning "the one called Christ" - using for "called" a present passive <br>
participle, legomenon. On the other hand, "gamelid ist" translates a Greek <br>
perfect, "gegraptai" - it has been written. I am told that the Greek <br>
perfect expresses an abiding consequence of an action, and Wulfila chose to <br>
represent this by the same construction as English uses. If our heritage has <br>
been buried, or lies buried, it is in another abiding state, and so I guess <br>
that Greek would use a perfect, and Wulfila would have represented this by <br>
"fulhan ist".<br>
<br>
As for compounds of "filhan", Matt 8:22 uses "gafilhan" for burying (leave <br>
the dead to bury their dead). On the other hand, the suggested "affilhan" <br>
is used in Luke 10:21 to mean to hide something away.<br>
<br>
Mark 14:8 uses "usfilh" to mean burial.<br>
<br>
Luke 9:59 and 9:60 uses "usfilhan" for bury<br>
<br>
John 12:7 "gafilh" is burial.<br>
<br>
Gerry T.<br>
<br>
In a message dated 06/07/2013 00:10:03 GMT Daylight Time, <br>
<a href="mailto:edmundfairfax%40yahoo.ca">edmundfairfax@yahoo.ca</a> writes:<br>
<br>
1) "sijain" should be 'sijai'<br>
<br>
2) There seems to be much confusion about the formation of the Gothic <br>
passive. A careful look in a good grammar, such as Braune's (5.1, 2004), will <br>
reveal that there is an inflected passive only in the present indicative and <br>
present subjunctive; in the preterite, a paraphrastic construction is used <br>
consisting of a suitable preterite form of the auxiliary 'wisan/wairthan' <br>
and the past participle of the main verb. I quote from the Braune:<br>
<br>
"Das Passiv ist nur noch in einigen Formen des Indikativ und Optativ <br>
Praes. vorhanden...die fehlenden Passivformen werden umschrieben durch das Part. <br>
Praet. mit dem entsprechenden Formen von 'wairthan' oder 'wisan', z.B. <br>
'daupjada' "werde getauft' (Mk. 10,38), aber 'daupiths was' 'wurde getauft' <br>
(Mk. 1,19)."<br>
<br>
The present passive is formed by using the stem of the infinitive, not the <br>
preterite. Thus, 'fulhada' is altogether incorrect.<br>
<br>
It should also be noted that there is no perfect in Gothic. A passive can <br>
have both an active or stative sense. As an example of the stative sense, <br>
consider the following line from the Gothic Bible:<br>
<br>
"hwana wileith ei fraletau izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada <br>
Xristus?" (Mat. 27,17)<br>
'Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus, who is called <br>
Christ?'<br>
<br>
Here 'haitada', the third-person singular present indicative passive of <br>
the verb 'haitan', clearly has a stative rather than active sense; the <br>
subordinate clause could also be rendered as 'whose name is Christ'. Thus, it <br>
does not follow that ''filhada' 'is buried' must have only an active sense, <br>
and not a stative sense.<br>
<br>
3) The Goths employed the convention of scriptio continua ('continuous <br>
writing'), that is, writing without spaces between words (e.g. <br>
"tobeornottobethatisthequestion"). But in modern editions, words are normally separated <br>
by spaces, and prefixes and suffixes are written together with the word they <br>
belong to without the use of hyphens. Thus "af-grundithai" ought to be <br>
written 'afgrundithai'.<br>
<br>
4) The form "afilhada" lacks the 'f' of the prefix and should be <br>
'affilhada'.<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, Grsartor@... wrote:<br>
><br>
> Sorry to quibble at this stage, but:<br>
> <br>
> (i) I think "sijain" should be "sijai".<br>
> <br>
> (ii) I think the original choice of "fulhan" for "(lying) buried" was <br>
> right. The form "filhada" means that a thing is buried in the sense that <br>
someone <br>
> is in the act or habit of burying it. Since the burial is complete you <br>
> want the past participle, which is passive in sense. In the modern <br>
Germanic <br>
> languages it is apparently active when used with "have" as an <br>
auxiliary, but <br>
> this construction I think was adopted from the Latin tongues, and does <br>
not <br>
> appear in Gothic. In any case the true passive sense is brought out in <br>
> modern German, or occasionally in English, e.g.<br>
> <br>
> The police have got the building surrounded (= the police have <br>
surrounded <br>
> the building).<br>
> <br>
> Gerry T.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> In a message dated 05/07/2013 21:19:17 GMT Daylight Time, nodead4@... <br>
> writes:<br>
> <br>
> Understood!<br>
> <br>
> Therefore, the poem finally is of this form:<br>
> <br>
> Hvar ist othal unsar? / Hvar ist arbi unsar?<br>
> Afilhada ufarmaudeins af-grundithai <br>
> Hindana thizos ahwos, aiwis andéis <br>
> Wulthag sijain fraweit. <br>
> <br>
> I was using "heritage" as broadly meant, so I finally choose "arby" <br>
> instead of "othal" then. I guess you should be credited in the <br>
recording booklet!!<br>
> <br>
> Many thanx to all. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, "nodead4" <nodead4@> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Hello all, I have composed a short poem Gothic language. I'm not a <br>
> linguist nor an expert, so there will be several mistakes. Some help is <br>
> requested to make it right. (This is part of a song in english, but I <br>
wanted to <br>
> include this speech in a middle section).<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > Hvar ist othal unsar? (where is our heritage?)<br>
> > Fulhans ana ufar maudeis af-grunditha (buried into the abyss of <br>
oblivion)<br>
> > Thairh thata ahwa, aiws and�is (across the river, the end of an <br>
era)<br>
> > Wolthags fraweit wisan. (Glorious revenge be)<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > Thanx in advance.<br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ------------------------------------<br>
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> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
><br>
<br>
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