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<p>Hi, Edmund.<br>
<br>
Thank you for your thorough and scholarly reply to the view I expressed. As <br>
often, I have learnt as a result of checking a point of Gothic usage <br>
raised by someone else; but this time I have been more than usually dependent on <br>
others' research. All this from a short poem one of our group wrote. May <br>
there be more compositions for us to get our teeth into.<br>
<br>
Gerry.<br>
<br>
<br>
In a message dated 07/07/2013 22:30:28 GMT Daylight Time, <br>
<a href="mailto:edmundfairfax%40yahoo.ca">edmundfairfax@yahoo.ca</a> writes:<br>
<br>
Dear Gerry,<br>
<br>
I have done some checking, as promised, and can relay the following.<br>
<br>
1) Earlier attempts to equate the wisan- and wairthan-passive forms with <br>
the etymological equivalents in modern German have been shown to be <br>
misguided and ultimately misrepresentative of the linguistic facts. A study done by <br>
Anneliese Bammesberger entitled "Die Deutung partiell konkurriender <br>
Formen: Ueberlegungen zum Gotischen Was-, Warth-Passiv" (in >Befund und Deutung. <br>
Zum Verhaeltnis von Empirie und Interpretation in Sprach- und <br>
Literaturwissenschaft< 1979) has shown that the<br>
<br>
'was-' und 'warth-'Passiv werden in gleicher Weise zum Ausdruck <br>
passivischer Bedeutung verwendet. Zwischen diesen beiden Morphemgruppen sind <br>
Unterschiede in der syntaktisch-semanatischen Funktion nicht ueberzeugend <br>
nachzuweisen. (p. 108)<br>
<br>
In other words, there is, on the whole, no demonstrable difference in <br>
meaning between the pseudo-auxiliaries 'wisan' and 'wairthan' in the formation <br>
of the paraphrastic passive, and that "'warth-' wie 'was-'Passiv kann <br>
griechischen Aorist oder Perfekt entsprechen" ('the 'warth-' like the <br>
'was-'passive can correspond to the Greek aorist or perfect'). To cite only a couple <br>
of her examples:<br>
<br>
'gabaurans warth' (J9,20) = aorist, versus 'galothoths warth' (C7,18) = <br>
perfect<br>
'gabaurans was' (G4,23) = perfect, versus 'galothoths wast' (C7,21) = <br>
aorist<br>
<br>
This means ultimately that Gothic lacks an unambiguous way of showing a <br>
stative versus an active sense in the paraphrastic passive.<br>
<br>
2) The example I cited in an earlier e-mail, with 'haitada' ('is called'), <br>
seems to have caused some confusion because of my gloss. 'Haitan' means <br>
simply 'to have as one's name, to be named, to be called'. The gloss 'to be <br>
called' need not imply reiteration -- "keep on calling him" as you worded <br>
it. Thus the line I cited could also be translated 'Barabbas or Jesus, whose <br>
name is Christ'. This is clearly stative. And I have found some further <br>
examples wherein a stative sense is quite clear:<br>
<br>
us thammei all fadreinis in himina jah ana airtha namnjada (E3,15) 'whence <br>
every family in heaven and on earth is named'<br>
<br>
swethauh ei ufarassau izwis frijonds mins frijoda (2C12,15) 'but such that <br>
loving you more, will I be loved less'<br>
<br>
fram thammei gafahanai habanda (2T2,26) 'by whom they are held captive'<br>
<br>
As these examples show, a stative sense is in fact possible with inflected <br>
passives.<br>
<br>
The foregoing then means that the phrase "is buried" can be translated <br>
indifferently as 'filhada' or 'ist fulhans'.<br>
<br>
--- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, "Edmund" <edmundfairfax@...> wrote:<br>
><br>
> <br>
> My objection was in fact NOT to the use of the past participle in the <br>
poem but rather to the form "fulhada", which is a confusion of a past <br>
participle and an inflected rather than paraphrastic present passive form; if an <br>
inflected present passive form is to be used, then it must be 'filhada' or a <br>
prefixed form of the same.<br>
> <br>
> As you rightly observe, the paraphrastic passive construction could also <br>
be used to form present passives, with a present or future reference. <br>
Given that the verb 'wisan' is inherently stative, the form 'ist fulhans' is <br>
naturally to be interpreted as a stative passive. That the inflected pres. <br>
passive cannot have a stative meaning, however, I have my doubts, but at this <br>
point, I will do more research and report my findings in due course.<br>
> <br>
> Certainly, the use of 'ist fulhans' (with the past part. properly <br>
agreeing with whatever word it is to modify), or by ellipsis simply the past <br>
part. alone, would seem to be a very acceptable choice in the context of the <br>
poem. The following example is very close in sense:<br>
> <br>
> ni waiht auk ist gahulith thatei ni andhuljaidau (Mat10,26) 'for nothing <br>
is hidden that may not be revealed'<br>
> <br>
> To my thinking, the verb 'affilhan' ('to bury away' so as to hide) <br>
seemed apt given the context of the poem: the stress seems to be on the absolute <br>
loss God knows where -- 'buried in an abyss of oblivion', I believe it <br>
was. The prefix 'af-' seemed to heighten the effect but, of course, need not <br>
be used.<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, Grsartor@ wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > Sorry to harp. Here is why I think that "fulhan" rather than <br>
"filhada" was <br>
> > right:<br>
> > <br>
> > The formula "it is written" occurs repeatedly in the New Testament, <br>
and is <br>
> > expressed by Wulfila as "gameliþ ist" or "gamelid ist". Example:<br>
> > <br>
> > Matt 11:10 sa ist auk bi þanei gameliþ ist: sai, ik insandja aggilu <br>
> > meinana faura þus, saei gamanweiþ wig þeinana faura þus. <br>
> > <br>
> > This is he of whom it is written,<br>
> > <br>
> > "Behold, I send my messenger before thy face,<br>
> > who shall prepare thy way before thee."<br>
> > <br>
> > There are many other examples, such as Mark 1:2, Mark 7:6, Luke <br>
2:23, 3:4, <br>
> > 4:4, 4:8.<br>
> > <br>
> > It is clear, then, that to the question "where is the word of the <br>
prophet" <br>
> > a possible answer would be<br>
> > <br>
> > gameliþ [ist] in malmin - [it is] written in the sand,<br>
> > <br>
> > Gothic, like English, using a past participle.<br>
> > <br>
> > And so, if the question is "where is our heritage", as in the poem we <br>
have <br>
> > been concerned with, an answer like "buried in ..." would surely <br>
contain <br>
> > "buried" as a past participle, wherefore my belief that the original <br>
> > "fulhan" was right.<br>
> > <br>
> > Now let us consider Edmund's counterexample:<br>
> > <br>
> > "hwana wileith ei fraletau izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada <br>
> > Xristus?" (Mat. 27,17)<br>
> > 'Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus, who is <br>
called <br>
> > Christ?'<br>
> > <br>
> > Here, the present passive (haitada) may have been chosen because the <br>
sense <br>
> > was that Christos is what people keep calling him. On the other hand, <br>
"it <br>
> > is written" refers to something written once and for all. I think the <br>
> > latter example is more relevant to the answer for what has happened <br>
to our <br>
> > heritage: it has been buried once and for all, rather than that <br>
people keep <br>
> > burying it.<br>
> > <br>
> > A look at the original Greek perhaps supports my conjecture. For <br>
> > corresponding to Edmund's quoted "saei haitada Xristus" it has "ton <br>
legomenon <br>
> > Christon", meaning "the one called Christ" - using for "called" a <br>
present passive <br>
> > participle, legomenon. On the other hand, "gamelid ist" translates a <br>
Greek <br>
> > perfect, "gegraptai" - it has been written. I am told that the Greek <br>
> > perfect expresses an abiding consequence of an action, and Wulfila <br>
chose to <br>
> > represent this by the same construction as English uses. If our <br>
heritage has <br>
> > been buried, or lies buried, it is in another abiding state, and so I <br>
guess <br>
> > that Greek would use a perfect, and Wulfila would have represented <br>
this by <br>
> > "fulhan ist".<br>
> > <br>
> > As for compounds of "filhan", Matt 8:22 uses "gafilhan" for burying <br>
(leave <br>
> > the dead to bury their dead). On the other hand, the suggested <br>
"affilhan" <br>
> > is used in Luke 10:21 to mean to hide something away.<br>
> > <br>
> > Mark 14:8 uses "usfilh" to mean burial.<br>
> > <br>
> > Luke 9:59 and 9:60 uses "usfilhan" for bury<br>
> > <br>
> > John 12:7 "gafilh" is burial.<br>
> > <br>
> > Gerry T.<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > In a message dated 06/07/2013 00:10:03 GMT Daylight Time, <br>
> > edmundfairfax@ writes:<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > 1) "sijain" should be 'sijai'<br>
> > <br>
> > 2) There seems to be much confusion about the formation of the Gothic <br>
> > passive. A careful look in a good grammar, such as Braune's (5.1, <br>
2004), will <br>
> > reveal that there is an inflected passive only in the present <br>
indicative and <br>
> > present subjunctive; in the preterite, a paraphrastic construction is <br>
used <br>
> > consisting of a suitable preterite form of the auxiliary <br>
'wisan/wairthan' <br>
> > and the past participle of the main verb. I quote from the Braune:<br>
> > <br>
> > "Das Passiv ist nur noch in einigen Formen des Indikativ und Optativ <br>
> > Praes. vorhanden...die fehlenden Passivformen werden umschrieben <br>
durch das Part. <br>
> > Praet. mit dem entsprechenden Formen von 'wairthan' oder 'wisan', <br>
z.B. <br>
> > 'daupjada' "werde getauft' (Mk. 10,38), aber 'daupiths was' 'wurde <br>
getauft' <br>
> > (Mk. 1,19)."<br>
> > <br>
> > The present passive is formed by using the stem of the infinitive, <br>
not the <br>
> > preterite. Thus, 'fulhada' is altogether incorrect.<br>
> > <br>
> > It should also be noted that there is no perfect in Gothic. A passive <br>
can <br>
> > have both an active or stative sense. As an example of the stative <br>
sense, <br>
> > consider the following line from the Gothic Bible:<br>
> > <br>
> > "hwana wileith ei fraletau izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada <br>
> > Xristus?" (Mat. 27,17)<br>
> > 'Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus, who is <br>
called <br>
> > Christ?'<br>
> > <br>
> > Here 'haitada', the third-person singular present indicative passive <br>
of <br>
> > the verb 'haitan', clearly has a stative rather than active sense; <br>
the <br>
> > subordinate clause could also be rendered as 'whose name is Christ'. <br>
Thus, it <br>
> > does not follow that ''filhada' 'is buried' must have only an active <br>
sense, <br>
> > and not a stative sense.<br>
> > <br>
> > 3) The Goths employed the convention of scriptio continua <br>
('continuous <br>
> > writing'), that is, writing without spaces between words (e.g. <br>
> > "tobeornottobethatisthequestion"). But in modern editions, words are <br>
normally separated <br>
> > by spaces, and prefixes and suffixes are written together with the <br>
word they <br>
> > belong to without the use of hyphens. Thus "af-grundithai" ought to <br>
be <br>
> > written 'afgrundithai'.<br>
> > <br>
> > 4) The form "afilhada" lacks the 'f' of the prefix and should be <br>
> > 'affilhada'.<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, Grsartor@ wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Sorry to quibble at this stage, but:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > (i) I think "sijain" should be "sijai".<br>
> > > <br>
> > > (ii) I think the original choice of "fulhan" for "(lying) buried" <br>
was <br>
> > > right. The form "filhada" means that a thing is buried in the sense <br>
that <br>
> > someone <br>
> > > is in the act or habit of burying it. Since the burial is complete <br>
you <br>
> > > want the past participle, which is passive in sense. In the modern <br>
<br>
> > Germanic <br>
> > > languages it is apparently active when used with "have" as an <br>
> > auxiliary, but <br>
> > > this construction I think was adopted from the Latin tongues, and <br>
does <br>
> > not <br>
> > > appear in Gothic. In any case the true passive sense is brought <br>
out in <br>
> > > modern German, or occasionally in English, e.g.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > The police have got the building surrounded (= the police have <br>
> > surrounded <br>
> > > the building).<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Gerry T.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > In a message dated 05/07/2013 21:19:17 GMT Daylight Time, nodead4@ <br>
<br>
> > > writes:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Understood!<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Therefore, the poem finally is of this form:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Hvar ist othal unsar? / Hvar ist arbi unsar?<br>
> > > Afilhada ufarmaudeins af-grundithai <br>
> > > Hindana thizos ahwos, aiwis andéis <br>
> > > Wulthag sijain fraweit. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > I was using "heritage" as broadly meant, so I finally choose <br>
"arby" <br>
> > > instead of "othal" then. I guess you should be credited in the <br>
> > recording booklet!!<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Many thanx to all. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, "nodead4" <nodead4@> wrote:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Hello all, I have composed a short poem Gothic language. I'm <br>
not a <br>
> > > linguist nor an expert, so there will be several mistakes. Some <br>
help is <br>
> > > requested to make it right. (This is part of a song in english, <br>
but I <br>
> > wanted to <br>
> > > include this speech in a middle section).<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Hvar ist othal unsar? (where is our heritage?)<br>
> > > > Fulhans ana ufar maudeis af-grunditha (buried into the abyss of <br>
<br>
> > oblivion)<br>
> > > > Thairh thata ahwa, aiws and�is (across the river, the end of <br>
an <br>
> > era)<br>
> > > > Wolthags fraweit wisan. (Glorious revenge be)<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Thanx in advance.<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > ------------------------------------<br>
> > > <br>
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> > > <br>
> > > <br>
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> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
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