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<p><br>
> <br>
> In a message dated 08/07/2013 23:43:27 GMT Daylight Time, <br>
> duke.co@... writes:<br>
> <br>
> does someone haf a definitive words for nose and hair......i think hair <br>
> is tagla , but back in those days all the goths had long hair and i assume <br>
> they were talkin about putting their hair as a pony tail......not sure<br>
> <br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
that is an interesting point. If "tagl" meant (hair-) tail it could be related to the dialectic German word "Zagel" meaing tail (of a horse or cow).<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Dirk<br>
<br>
> --- On Sun, 7/7/13, Edmund <edmundfairfax@...> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> From: Edmund <edmundfairfax@...><br>
> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: A short gothic poem<br>
> To: <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
> Date: Sunday, July 7, 2013, 4:30 PM<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Dear Gerry,<br>
> <br>
> I have done some checking, as promised, and can relay the following.<br>
> <br>
> 1) Earlier attempts to equate the wisan- and wairthan-passive forms with <br>
> the etymological equivalents in modern German have been shown to be <br>
> misguided and ultimately misrepresentative of the linguistic facts. A study done by <br>
> Anneliese Bammesberger entitled "Die Deutung partiell konkurriender <br>
> Formen: Ueberlegungen zum Gotischen Was-, Warth-Passiv" (in >Befund und Deutung. <br>
> Zum Verhaeltnis von Empirie und Interpretation in Sprach- und <br>
> Literaturwissenschaft< 1979) has shown that the<br>
> <br>
> 'was-' und 'warth-'Passiv werden in gleicher Weise zum Ausdruck <br>
> passivischer Bedeutung verwendet. Zwischen diesen beiden Morphemgruppen sind <br>
> Unterschiede in der syntaktisch-semanatischen Funktion nicht ueberzeugend <br>
> nachzuweisen. (p. 108)<br>
> <br>
> In other words, there is, on the whole, no demonstrable difference in <br>
> meaning between the pseudo-auxiliaries 'wisan' and 'wairthan' in the formation <br>
> of the paraphrastic passive, and that "'warth-' wie 'was-'Passiv kann <br>
> griechischen Aorist oder Perfekt entsprechen" ('the 'warth-' like the <br>
> 'was-'passive can correspond to the Greek aorist or perfect'). To cite only a couple <br>
> of her examples:<br>
> <br>
> 'gabaurans warth' (J9,20) = aorist, versus 'galothoths warth' (C7,18) = <br>
> perfect<br>
> 'gabaurans was' (G4,23) = perfect, versus 'galothoths wast' (C7,21) = <br>
> aorist<br>
> <br>
> This means ultimately that Gothic lacks an unambiguous way of showing a <br>
> stative versus an active sense in the paraphrastic passive.<br>
> <br>
> 2) The example I cited in an earlier e-mail, with 'haitada' ('is called'), <br>
> seems to have caused some confusion because of my gloss. 'Haitan' means <br>
> simply 'to have as one's name, to be named, to be called'. The gloss 'to be <br>
> called' need not imply reiteration -- "keep on calling him" as you worded <br>
> it. Thus the line I cited could also be translated 'Barabbas or Jesus, whose <br>
> name is Christ'. This is clearly stative. And I have found some further <br>
> examples wherein a stative sense is quite clear:<br>
> <br>
> us thammei all fadreinis in himina jah ana airtha namnjada (E3,15) 'whence <br>
> every family in heaven and on earth is named'<br>
> <br>
> swethauh ei ufarassau izwis frijonds mins frijoda (2C12,15) 'but such that <br>
> loving you more, will I be loved less'<br>
> <br>
> fram thammei gafahanai habanda (2T2,26) 'by whom they are held captive'<br>
> <br>
> As these examples show, a stative sense is in fact possible with inflected <br>
> passives.<br>
> <br>
> The foregoing then means that the phrase "is buried" can be translated <br>
> indifferently as 'filhada' or 'ist fulhans'.<br>
> <br>
> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, "Edmund" <edmundfairfax@> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> > <br>
> > My objection was in fact NOT to the use of the past participle in the <br>
> poem but rather to the form "fulhada", which is a confusion of a past <br>
> participle and an inflected rather than paraphrastic present passive form; if an <br>
> inflected present passive form is to be used, then it must be 'filhada' or a <br>
> prefixed form of the same.<br>
> > <br>
> > As you rightly observe, the paraphrastic passive construction could also <br>
> be used to form present passives, with a present or future reference. <br>
> Given that the verb 'wisan' is inherently stative, the form 'ist fulhans' is <br>
> naturally to be interpreted as a stative passive. That the inflected pres. <br>
> passive cannot have a stative meaning, however, I have my doubts, but at this <br>
> point, I will do more research and report my findings in due course.<br>
> > <br>
> > Certainly, the use of 'ist fulhans' (with the past part. properly <br>
> agreeing with whatever word it is to modify), or by ellipsis simply the past <br>
> part. alone, would seem to be a very acceptable choice in the context of the <br>
> poem. The following example is very close in sense:<br>
> > <br>
> > ni waiht auk ist gahulith thatei ni andhuljaidau (Mat10,26) 'for nothing <br>
> is hidden that may not be revealed'<br>
> > <br>
> > To my thinking, the verb 'affilhan' ('to bury away' so as to hide) <br>
> seemed apt given the context of the poem: the stress seems to be on the absolute <br>
> loss God knows where -- 'buried in an abyss of oblivion', I believe it <br>
> was. The prefix 'af-' seemed to heighten the effect but, of course, need not <br>
> be used.<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, Grsartor@ wrote:<br>
> > ><br>
> > > Sorry to harp. Here is why I think that "fulhan" rather than "filhada" <br>
> was <br>
> > > right:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > The formula "it is written" occurs repeatedly in the New Testament, <br>
> and is <br>
> > > expressed by Wulfila as "gameliþ ist" or "gamelid ist". Example:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Matt 11:10 sa ist auk bi þanei gameliþ ist: sai, ik insandja aggilu <br>
> > > meinana faura þus, saei gamanweiþ wig þeinana faura þus. <br>
> > > <br>
> > > This is he of whom it is written,<br>
> > > <br>
> > > "Behold, I send my messenger before thy face,<br>
> > > who shall prepare thy way before thee."<br>
> > > <br>
> > > There are many other examples, such as Mark 1:2, Mark 7:6, Luke 2:23, <br>
> 3:4, <br>
> > > 4:4, 4:8.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > It is clear, then, that to the question "where is the word of the <br>
> prophet" <br>
> > > a possible answer would be<br>
> > > <br>
> > > gameliþ [ist] in malmin - [it is] written in the sand,<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Gothic, like English, using a past participle.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > And so, if the question is "where is our heritage", as in the poem we <br>
> have <br>
> > > been concerned with, an answer like "buried in ..." would surely <br>
> contain <br>
> > > "buried" as a past participle, wherefore my belief that the original <br>
> > > "fulhan" was right.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Now let us consider Edmund's counterexample:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > "hwana wileith ei fraletau izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada <br>
> > > Xristus?" (Mat. 27,17)<br>
> > > 'Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus, who is <br>
> called <br>
> > > Christ?'<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Here, the present passive (haitada) may have been chosen because the <br>
> sense <br>
> > > was that Christos is what people keep calling him. On the other hand, <br>
> "it <br>
> > > is written" refers to something written once and for all. I think the <br>
> > > latter example is more relevant to the answer for what has happened to <br>
> our <br>
> > > heritage: it has been buried once and for all, rather than that people <br>
> keep <br>
> > > burying it.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > A look at the original Greek perhaps supports my conjecture. For <br>
> > > corresponding to Edmund's quoted "saei haitada Xristus" it has "ton <br>
> legomenon <br>
> > > Christon", meaning "the one called Christ" - using for "called" a <br>
> present passive <br>
> > > participle, legomenon. On the other hand, "gamelid ist" translates a <br>
> Greek <br>
> > > perfect, "gegraptai" - it has been written. I am told that the Greek <br>
> > > perfect expresses an abiding consequence of an action, and Wulfila <br>
> chose to <br>
> > > represent this by the same construction as English uses. If our <br>
> heritage has <br>
> > > been buried, or lies buried, it is in another abiding state, and so I <br>
> guess <br>
> > > that Greek would use a perfect, and Wulfila would have represented <br>
> this by <br>
> > > "fulhan ist".<br>
> > > <br>
> > > As for compounds of "filhan", Matt 8:22 uses "gafilhan" for burying <br>
> (leave <br>
> > > the dead to bury their dead). On the other hand, the suggested <br>
> "affilhan" <br>
> > > is used in Luke 10:21 to mean to hide something away.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Mark 14:8 uses "usfilh" to mean burial.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Luke 9:59 and 9:60 uses "usfilhan" for bury<br>
> > > <br>
> > > John 12:7 "gafilh" is burial.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Gerry T.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > In a message dated 06/07/2013 00:10:03 GMT Daylight Time, <br>
> > > edmundfairfax@ writes:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > 1) "sijain" should be 'sijai'<br>
> > > <br>
> > > 2) There seems to be much confusion about the formation of the Gothic <br>
> > > passive. A careful look in a good grammar, such as Braune's (5.1, <br>
> 2004), will <br>
> > > reveal that there is an inflected passive only in the present <br>
> indicative and <br>
> > > present subjunctive; in the preterite, a paraphrastic construction is <br>
> used <br>
> > > consisting of a suitable preterite form of the auxiliary '<br>
> wisan/wairthan' <br>
> > > and the past participle of the main verb. I quote from the Braune:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > "Das Passiv ist nur noch in einigen Formen des Indikativ und Optativ <br>
> > > Praes. vorhanden...die fehlenden Passivformen werden umschrieben durch <br>
> das Part. <br>
> > > Praet. mit dem entsprechenden Formen von 'wairthan' oder 'wisan', z.B. <br>
> > > 'daupjada' "werde getauft' (Mk. 10,38), aber 'daupiths was' 'wurde <br>
> getauft' <br>
> > > (Mk. 1,19)."<br>
> > > <br>
> > > The present passive is formed by using the stem of the infinitive, not <br>
> the <br>
> > > preterite. Thus, 'fulhada' is altogether incorrect.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > It should also be noted that there is no perfect in Gothic. A passive <br>
> can <br>
> > > have both an active or stative sense. As an example of the stative <br>
> sense, <br>
> > > consider the following line from the Gothic Bible:<br>
> > > <br>
> > > "hwana wileith ei fraletau izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada <br>
> > > Xristus?" (Mat. 27,17)<br>
> > > 'Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus, who is <br>
> called <br>
> > > Christ?'<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Here 'haitada', the third-person singular present indicative passive <br>
> of <br>
> > > the verb 'haitan', clearly has a stative rather than active sense; the <br>
> > > subordinate clause could also be rendered as 'whose name is Christ'. <br>
> Thus, it <br>
> > > does not follow that ''filhada' 'is buried' must have only an active <br>
> sense, <br>
> > > and not a stative sense.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > 3) The Goths employed the convention of scriptio continua ('continuous <br>
> > > writing'), that is, writing without spaces between words (e.g. <br>
> > > "tobeornottobethatisthequestion"). But in modern editions, words are <br>
> normally separated <br>
> > > by spaces, and prefixes and suffixes are written together with the <br>
> word they <br>
> > > belong to without the use of hyphens. Thus "af-grundithai" ought to be <br>
> > > written 'afgrundithai'.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > 4) The form "afilhada" lacks the 'f' of the prefix and should be <br>
> > > 'affilhada'.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > <br>
> > > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, Grsartor@ wrote:<br>
> > > ><br>
> > > > Sorry to quibble at this stage, but:<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > (i) I think "sijain" should be "sijai".<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > (ii) I think the original choice of "fulhan" for "(lying) buried" <br>
> was <br>
> > > > right. The form "filhada" means that a thing is buried in the sense <br>
> that <br>
> > > someone <br>
> > > > is in the act or habit of burying it. Since the burial is complete <br>
> you <br>
> > > > want the past participle, which is passive in sense. In the modern <br>
> > > Germanic <br>
> > > > languages it is apparently active when used with "have" as an <br>
> > > auxiliary, but <br>
> > > > this construction I think was adopted from the Latin tongues, and <br>
> does <br>
> > > not <br>
> > > > appear in Gothic. In any case the true passive sense is brought out <br>
> in <br>
> > > > modern German, or occasionally in English, e.g.<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > The police have got the building surrounded (= the police have <br>
> > > surrounded <br>
> > > > the building).<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Gerry T.<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > In a message dated 05/07/2013 21:19:17 GMT Daylight Time, nodead4@ <br>
> > > > writes:<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Understood!<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Therefore, the poem finally is of this form:<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Hvar ist othal unsar? / Hvar ist arbi unsar?<br>
> > > > Afilhada ufarmaudeins af-grundithai <br>
> > > > Hindana thizos ahwos, aiwis andéis <br>
> > > > Wulthag sijain fraweit. <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > I was using "heritage" as broadly meant, so I finally choose "arby" <br>
> > > > instead of "othal" then. I guess you should be credited in the <br>
> > > recording booklet!!<br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > Many thanx to all. <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, "nodead4" <nodead4@> wrote:<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > > Hello all, I have composed a short poem Gothic language. I'm not a <br>
> > > > linguist nor an expert, so there will be several mistakes. Some help <br>
> is <br>
> > > > requested to make it right. (This is part of a song in english, but <br>
> I <br>
> > > wanted to <br>
> > > > include this speech in a middle section).<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > Hvar ist othal unsar? (where is our heritage?)<br>
> > > > > Fulhans ana ufar maudeis af-grunditha (buried into the abyss of <br>
> > > oblivion)<br>
> > > > > Thairh thata ahwa, aiws and�is (across the river, the end of an <br>
> > > era)<br>
> > > > > Wolthags fraweit wisan. (Glorious revenge be)<br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > <br>
> > > > > Thanx in advance.<br>
> > > > ><br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > <br>
> > > > <br>
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