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<p>><br>
>><br>
>> In a message dated 08/07/2013 23:43:27 GMT Daylight Time,<br>
>> duke.co@... writes:<br>
>><br>
>> does someone haf a definitive words for nose and hair......i think<br>
>> hair<br>
>> is tagla , but back in those days all the goths had long hair and i<br>
>> assume<br>
>> they were talkin about putting their hair as a pony tail......not sure<br>
>><br>
><br>
><br>
> Hi,<br>
><br>
> that is an interesting point. If "tagl" meant (hair-) tail it could be<br>
> related to the dialectic German word "Zagel" meaing tail (of a horse or<br>
> cow).<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
> Dirk<br>
><br>
In modern Norwegian, hestetagl (horse-tagl) means horse-hair, as in mane<br>
and tail.<br>
<br>
Halstein.<br>
<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>> --- On Sun, 7/7/13, Edmund <edmundfairfax@...> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> From: Edmund <edmundfairfax@...><br>
>> Subject: [gothic-l] Re: A short gothic poem<br>
>> To: <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
>> Date: Sunday, July 7, 2013, 4:30 PM<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Dear Gerry,<br>
>><br>
>> I have done some checking, as promised, and can relay the following.<br>
>><br>
>> 1) Earlier attempts to equate the wisan- and wairthan-passive forms<br>
>> with<br>
>> the etymological equivalents in modern German have been shown to be<br>
>> misguided and ultimately misrepresentative of the linguistic facts. A<br>
>> study done by<br>
>> Anneliese Bammesberger entitled "Die Deutung partiell konkurriender<br>
>> Formen: Ueberlegungen zum Gotischen Was-, Warth-Passiv" (in >Befund und<br>
>> Deutung.<br>
>> Zum Verhaeltnis von Empirie und Interpretation in Sprach- und<br>
>> Literaturwissenschaft< 1979) has shown that the<br>
>><br>
>> 'was-' und 'warth-'Passiv werden in gleicher Weise zum Ausdruck<br>
>> passivischer Bedeutung verwendet. Zwischen diesen beiden Morphemgruppen<br>
>> sind<br>
>> Unterschiede in der syntaktisch-semanatischen Funktion nicht<br>
>> ueberzeugend<br>
>> nachzuweisen. (p. 108)<br>
>><br>
>> In other words, there is, on the whole, no demonstrable difference in<br>
>> meaning between the pseudo-auxiliaries 'wisan' and 'wairthan' in the<br>
>> formation<br>
>> of the paraphrastic passive, and that "'warth-' wie 'was-'Passiv kann<br>
>> griechischen Aorist oder Perfekt entsprechen" ('the 'warth-' like the<br>
>> 'was-'passive can correspond to the Greek aorist or perfect'). To cite<br>
>> only a couple<br>
>> of her examples:<br>
>><br>
>> 'gabaurans warth' (J9,20) = aorist, versus 'galothoths warth' (C7,18) =<br>
>> perfect<br>
>> 'gabaurans was' (G4,23) = perfect, versus 'galothoths wast' (C7,21) =<br>
>> aorist<br>
>><br>
>> This means ultimately that Gothic lacks an unambiguous way of showing a<br>
>> stative versus an active sense in the paraphrastic passive.<br>
>><br>
>> 2) The example I cited in an earlier e-mail, with 'haitada' ('is<br>
>> called'),<br>
>> seems to have caused some confusion because of my gloss. 'Haitan' means<br>
>> simply 'to have as one's name, to be named, to be called'. The gloss<br>
>> 'to be<br>
>> called' need not imply reiteration -- "keep on calling him" as you<br>
>> worded<br>
>> it. Thus the line I cited could also be translated 'Barabbas or Jesus,<br>
>> whose<br>
>> name is Christ'. This is clearly stative. And I have found some further<br>
>> examples wherein a stative sense is quite clear:<br>
>><br>
>> us thammei all fadreinis in himina jah ana airtha namnjada (E3,15)<br>
>> 'whence<br>
>> every family in heaven and on earth is named'<br>
>><br>
>> swethauh ei ufarassau izwis frijonds mins frijoda (2C12,15) 'but such<br>
>> that<br>
>> loving you more, will I be loved less'<br>
>><br>
>> fram thammei gafahanai habanda (2T2,26) 'by whom they are held captive'<br>
>><br>
>> As these examples show, a stative sense is in fact possible with<br>
>> inflected<br>
>> passives.<br>
>><br>
>> The foregoing then means that the phrase "is buried" can be translated<br>
>> indifferently as 'filhada' or 'ist fulhans'.<br>
>><br>
>> --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, "Edmund" <edmundfairfax@> wrote:<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > My objection was in fact NOT to the use of the past participle in the<br>
>> poem but rather to the form "fulhada", which is a confusion of a past<br>
>> participle and an inflected rather than paraphrastic present passive<br>
>> form; if an<br>
>> inflected present passive form is to be used, then it must be 'filhada'<br>
>> or a<br>
>> prefixed form of the same.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > As you rightly observe, the paraphrastic passive construction could<br>
>> also<br>
>> be used to form present passives, with a present or future reference.<br>
>> Given that the verb 'wisan' is inherently stative, the form 'ist<br>
>> fulhans' is<br>
>> naturally to be interpreted as a stative passive. That the inflected<br>
>> pres.<br>
>> passive cannot have a stative meaning, however, I have my doubts, but<br>
>> at this<br>
>> point, I will do more research and report my findings in due course.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Certainly, the use of 'ist fulhans' (with the past part. properly<br>
>> agreeing with whatever word it is to modify), or by ellipsis simply the<br>
>> past<br>
>> part. alone, would seem to be a very acceptable choice in the context<br>
>> of the<br>
>> poem. The following example is very close in sense:<br>
>> ><br>
>> > ni waiht auk ist gahulith thatei ni andhuljaidau (Mat10,26) 'for<br>
>> nothing<br>
>> is hidden that may not be revealed'<br>
>> ><br>
>> > To my thinking, the verb 'affilhan' ('to bury away' so as to hide)<br>
>> seemed apt given the context of the poem: the stress seems to be on the<br>
>> absolute<br>
>> loss God knows where -- 'buried in an abyss of oblivion', I believe it<br>
>> was. The prefix 'af-' seemed to heighten the effect but, of course,<br>
>> need not<br>
>> be used.<br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, Grsartor@ wrote:<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Sorry to harp. Here is why I think that "fulhan" rather than<br>
>> "filhada"<br>
>> was<br>
>> > > right:<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > The formula "it is written" occurs repeatedly in the New Testament,<br>
>> and is<br>
>> > > expressed by Wulfila as "gameliþ ist" or "gamelid ist". Example:<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Matt 11:10 sa ist auk bi þanei gameliþ ist: sai, ik insandja aggilu<br>
>> > > meinana faura þus, saei gamanweiþ wig þeinana faura þus.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > This is he of whom it is written,<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > "Behold, I send my messenger before thy face,<br>
>> > > who shall prepare thy way before thee."<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > There are many other examples, such as Mark 1:2, Mark 7:6, Luke<br>
>> 2:23,<br>
>> 3:4,<br>
>> > > 4:4, 4:8.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > It is clear, then, that to the question "where is the word of the<br>
>> prophet"<br>
>> > > a possible answer would be<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > gameliþ [ist] in malmin - [it is] written in the sand,<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Gothic, like English, using a past participle.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > And so, if the question is "where is our heritage", as in the poem<br>
>> we<br>
>> have<br>
>> > > been concerned with, an answer like "buried in ..." would surely<br>
>> contain<br>
>> > > "buried" as a past participle, wherefore my belief that the<br>
>> original<br>
>> > > "fulhan" was right.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Now let us consider Edmund's counterexample:<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > "hwana wileith ei fraletau izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada<br>
>> > > Xristus?" (Mat. 27,17)<br>
>> > > 'Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus, who is<br>
>> called<br>
>> > > Christ?'<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Here, the present passive (haitada) may have been chosen because<br>
>> the<br>
>> sense<br>
>> > > was that Christos is what people keep calling him. On the other<br>
>> hand,<br>
>> "it<br>
>> > > is written" refers to something written once and for all. I think<br>
>> the<br>
>> > > latter example is more relevant to the answer for what has happened<br>
>> to<br>
>> our<br>
>> > > heritage: it has been buried once and for all, rather than that<br>
>> people<br>
>> keep<br>
>> > > burying it.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > A look at the original Greek perhaps supports my conjecture. For<br>
>> > > corresponding to Edmund's quoted "saei haitada Xristus" it has "ton<br>
>> legomenon<br>
>> > > Christon", meaning "the one called Christ" - using for "called" a<br>
>> present passive<br>
>> > > participle, legomenon. On the other hand, "gamelid ist" translates<br>
>> a<br>
>> Greek<br>
>> > > perfect, "gegraptai" - it has been written. I am told that the<br>
>> Greek<br>
>> > > perfect expresses an abiding consequence of an action, and Wulfila<br>
>> chose to<br>
>> > > represent this by the same construction as English uses. If our<br>
>> heritage has<br>
>> > > been buried, or lies buried, it is in another abiding state, and so<br>
>> I<br>
>> guess<br>
>> > > that Greek would use a perfect, and Wulfila would have represented<br>
>> this by<br>
>> > > "fulhan ist".<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > As for compounds of "filhan", Matt 8:22 uses "gafilhan" for burying<br>
>> (leave<br>
>> > > the dead to bury their dead). On the other hand, the suggested<br>
>> "affilhan"<br>
>> > > is used in Luke 10:21 to mean to hide something away.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Mark 14:8 uses "usfilh" to mean burial.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Luke 9:59 and 9:60 uses "usfilhan" for bury<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > John 12:7 "gafilh" is burial.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Gerry T.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > In a message dated 06/07/2013 00:10:03 GMT Daylight Time,<br>
>> > > edmundfairfax@ writes:<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > 1) "sijain" should be 'sijai'<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > 2) There seems to be much confusion about the formation of the<br>
>> Gothic<br>
>> > > passive. A careful look in a good grammar, such as Braune's (5.1,<br>
>> 2004), will<br>
>> > > reveal that there is an inflected passive only in the present<br>
>> indicative and<br>
>> > > present subjunctive; in the preterite, a paraphrastic construction<br>
>> is<br>
>> used<br>
>> > > consisting of a suitable preterite form of the auxiliary '<br>
>> wisan/wairthan'<br>
>> > > and the past participle of the main verb. I quote from the Braune:<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > "Das Passiv ist nur noch in einigen Formen des Indikativ und<br>
>> Optativ<br>
>> > > Praes. vorhanden...die fehlenden Passivformen werden umschrieben<br>
>> durch<br>
>> das Part.<br>
>> > > Praet. mit dem entsprechenden Formen von 'wairthan' oder 'wisan',<br>
>> z.B.<br>
>> > > 'daupjada' "werde getauft' (Mk. 10,38), aber 'daupiths was' 'wurde<br>
>> getauft'<br>
>> > > (Mk. 1,19)."<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > The present passive is formed by using the stem of the infinitive,<br>
>> not<br>
>> the<br>
>> > > preterite. Thus, 'fulhada' is altogether incorrect.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > It should also be noted that there is no perfect in Gothic. A<br>
>> passive<br>
>> can<br>
>> > > have both an active or stative sense. As an example of the stative<br>
>> sense,<br>
>> > > consider the following line from the Gothic Bible:<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > "hwana wileith ei fraletau izwis? Barabban thau Jesu, saei haitada<br>
>> > > Xristus?" (Mat. 27,17)<br>
>> > > 'Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas or Jesus, who is<br>
>> called<br>
>> > > Christ?'<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > Here 'haitada', the third-person singular present indicative<br>
>> passive<br>
>> of<br>
>> > > the verb 'haitan', clearly has a stative rather than active sense;<br>
>> the<br>
>> > > subordinate clause could also be rendered as 'whose name is<br>
>> Christ'.<br>
>> Thus, it<br>
>> > > does not follow that ''filhada' 'is buried' must have only an<br>
>> active<br>
>> sense,<br>
>> > > and not a stative sense.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > 3) The Goths employed the convention of scriptio continua<br>
>> ('continuous<br>
>> > > writing'), that is, writing without spaces between words (e.g.<br>
>> > > "tobeornottobethatisthequestion"). But in modern editions, words<br>
>> are<br>
>> normally separated<br>
>> > > by spaces, and prefixes and suffixes are written together with the<br>
>> word they<br>
>> > > belong to without the use of hyphens. Thus "af-grundithai" ought to<br>
>> be<br>
>> > > written 'afgrundithai'.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > 4) The form "afilhada" lacks the 'f' of the prefix and should be<br>
>> > > 'affilhada'.<br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, Grsartor@ wrote:<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > Sorry to quibble at this stage, but:<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > (i) I think "sijain" should be "sijai".<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > (ii) I think the original choice of "fulhan" for "(lying) buried"<br>
>> was<br>
>> > > > right. The form "filhada" means that a thing is buried in the<br>
>> sense<br>
>> that<br>
>> > > someone<br>
>> > > > is in the act or habit of burying it. Since the burial is<br>
>> complete<br>
>> you<br>
>> > > > want the past participle, which is passive in sense. In the<br>
>> modern<br>
>> > > Germanic<br>
>> > > > languages it is apparently active when used with "have" as an<br>
>> > > auxiliary, but<br>
>> > > > this construction I think was adopted from the Latin tongues, and<br>
>> does<br>
>> > > not<br>
>> > > > appear in Gothic. In any case the true passive sense is brought<br>
>> out<br>
>> in<br>
>> > > > modern German, or occasionally in English, e.g.<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > The police have got the building surrounded (= the police have<br>
>> > > surrounded<br>
>> > > > the building).<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > Gerry T.<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > In a message dated 05/07/2013 21:19:17 GMT Daylight Time,<br>
>> nodead4@<br>
>> > > > writes:<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > Understood!<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > Therefore, the poem finally is of this form:<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > Hvar ist othal unsar? / Hvar ist arbi unsar?<br>
>> > > > Afilhada ufarmaudeins af-grundithai<br>
>> > > > Hindana thizos ahwos, aiwis andéis<br>
>> > > > Wulthag sijain fraweit.<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > I was using "heritage" as broadly meant, so I finally choose<br>
>> "arby"<br>
>> > > > instead of "othal" then. I guess you should be credited in the<br>
>> > > recording booklet!!<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > Many thanx to all.<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > --- In <a href="mailto:gothic-l%40yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>, "nodead4" <nodead4@> wrote:<br>
>> > > > ><br>
>> > > > > Hello all, I have composed a short poem Gothic language. I'm<br>
>> not a<br>
>> > > > linguist nor an expert, so there will be several mistakes. Some<br>
>> help<br>
>> is<br>
>> > > > requested to make it right. (This is part of a song in english,<br>
>> but<br>
>> I<br>
>> > > wanted to<br>
>> > > > include this speech in a middle section).<br>
>> > > > ><br>
>> > > > ><br>
>> > > > > Hvar ist othal unsar? (where is our heritage?)<br>
>> > > > > Fulhans ana ufar maudeis af-grunditha (buried into the abyss of<br>
>> > > oblivion)<br>
>> > > > > Thairh thata ahwa, aiws and�is (across the river, the end of<br>
>> an<br>
>> > > era)<br>
>> > > > > Wolthags fraweit wisan. (Glorious revenge be)<br>
>> > > > ><br>
>> > > > ><br>
>> > > > > Thanx in advance.<br>
>> > > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > ------------------------------------<br>
>> > > ><br>
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>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]<br>
>> > > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > ><br>
>> > > ------------------------------------<br>
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>> ><br>
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