<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
<html>
<head>
</head>
<body style="background-color: #fff;">
<span style="display:none"> </span>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStartT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="position:relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" style="z-index: 1;">
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEndT|**|-~-->
<div id="ygrp-text" >
<p><p><br>I agree that it can be simplistic to assume too readily a "Christian-Pagan dichotomy" in earlier periods. A variety of sources suggest that the conversion to Christianity was a more complex process, partly voluntarily at times, and partly enforced at others. But I do think that this opposition can also be underplayed. Certainly, once the Catholic church, with all its institutional hierarchy, was in place, it did, judging from extant Christian writings such as saints' lives, maintain a fundamental opposition between dogma and heresy, the latter subsuming paganism.<br><br><span class="tab"><span class="tab"></span></span>As an example of this continuing Christian-Heathen opposition, consider, for example, Aelfric's "Letter to Edward", written during the tenth century and alluding to the influence of heathen Scandinavians in Danelaw (the North-Eastern part of England under Scandinavian control):<br><br>I say to thee as well, brother Edward, now that you have asked this of me, that you all do wrong in forsaking English customs, which your fathers upheld, and in embracing the customs of heathen men, which will not grant you (eternal) life, and you thereby show that you scorn your kind and your forebears with those faults, when, as an insult to them, you dress in the danish fashion, with the back of the head shaven and the eyes blinded with bangs (lit. 'with balded necks and blinded eyes'). I will say no more about this shameful appearance except that books tell us that he who follows the customs of heathens will be excommunicated in life and his own kin dishonoured thereby. (after the edition in the Old English Newsletter vol. 40, no. 3)<br><br>A passage from Wulfstan's Canon Law Collection likewise decrees (Cross and Hammer edition, p. 97):<br><br>If a Catholic cuts his hair in the manner of the barbarians, he shall be considered a stranger from the church of God and from every Christian table until he corrects his offence.</p><p style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br></p><p style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">Many further examples can be cited. And notably, the Christian-Heathen opposition is certainly present in the Passion of St Saba, which deals with the martyrdom of a Christian Goth at the times of the Athanaric persecutions.<br><br>The dearth of evidence makes it impossible to prove or disprove that a mention of human sacrifice in Christian texts is to be put down merely to a Christian "smear campaign". Ultimately, this is perhaps beside the point here. There is ample evidence, both textual and archaeological, that human sacrifice was indeed practiced in Northern Europe during the Roman period, not only by Germani but also by Gauls. A handy bibliography of pertinent scholarship can be found in Wells' The Battle That Stopped Rome (2003, p. 235). But such a practice is not evidence for killing off the elderly.</p><p style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br></p><p style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">Edmund<br></p><p><br class="yui-cursor"></p><div class="ygroups-quoted"><br><br>---In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, <d.faltin@...> wrote:<br><br><div id="ygrps-yiv-1659186377"><p>In the vast majority of cases it is non-sensical to speak of Christan smear campaigns or attempts by "the" Christians to wipe out "the" pagans and their culture. The reality is that by far most Germanic pagans voluntarily adopted Christianity. Some earlier, like the Goths and some a lot later like the various peoples of Scandinavia.</p><p>Clearly, conflicts arose from time to time with Christian rulers rallying their troops under the pretence of Christianization or solidifying their rule with the help of the clergy. On the other hand, some missionaries were killed some pagans persecuting Christians (again the Goths under Athanaric serve as example). On the whole, however, it makes no sense to portray history in this Christian-pagan dychotomy. Usually, the pagans shifted to Christianity gradually and voluntarily meaning that they at least considered the gains bigger than the losses. This does not mean that there are people today that clamour for the ancient pagan religions, of which they know so little and which they certainly don't understand.</p><p> </p><p>Cheers,</p><p>Dirk<var id="ygrps-yiv-1659186377yui-ie-cursor"></var></p><p> </p></div></div></p>
</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__._,_.___</div>
<div style="clear:both"> </div>
<table cellspacing=4px style="margin-top: 20px; margin-bottom: 10px;">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; font-weight: bold; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA " >
<a style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD" href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxcmVxMDhyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzExMTU0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTM5MTg4Njg5Ng--?act=reply&messageNum=11154">Reply via web post</a>
</td>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; " >
<a href="mailto:edmundfairfax@yahoo.ca?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bgothic-l%5D%20RE%3A%20Killing%20the%20Elderly" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">
Reply to sender </a>
</td>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; ">
<a href="mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com?subject=Re%3A%20%5Bgothic-l%5D%20RE%3A%20Killing%20the%20Elderly" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">
Reply to group </a>
</td>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #FFF; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; " >
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlYjg3dWEyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM5MTg4Njg5Ng--" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD">Start a New Topic</a>
</td>
<td style="font-size: 12px; font-family: arial; padding: 7px 5px 5px; color: #2D50FD; background-color: #F2F2F2; border: 1px solid #EAEAEA; " >
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/11144;_ylc=X3oDMTM2bDg0NWJmBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BG1zZ0lkAzExMTU0BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTM5MTg4Njg5NgR0cGNJZAMxMTE0NA--" style="text-decoration: none; color: #2D50FD;">Messages in this topic</a>
(11)
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<!------- Start Nav Bar ------>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-grfd" style="font-family: Verdana; font-size: 12px; padding: 15px 0;">
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div>
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-vital" style="background-color: #f2f2f2; font-family: Verdana; font-size: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; padding: 10px;">
<span id="vithd" style="font-weight: bold; color: #333; text-transform: uppercase; "><a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNGZsNjN0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwN2dGwEc2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTM5MTg4Njg5Ng--" style="text-decoration: none;">Visit Your Group</a></span>
<ul style="list-style-type: none; margin: 0; padding: 0; display: inline;">
</ul>
</div>
<div id="ft" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: 11px; margin-top: 5px; padding: 0 2px 0 0; clear: both;">
<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkcWxsbDBvBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzEwMjA1OTgEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1NzM5MjA2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMzkxODg2ODk2" style="float: left;"><img src="http://l.yimg.com/ru/static/images/yg/img/email/new_logo/logo-groups-137x15.png" height="15" width="137" alt="Yahoo! Groups" style="border: 0;"/></a>
<div style="color: #747575; float: right;"> • <a href="http://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/groups/details.html" style="text-decoration: none;">Privacy</a> • <a href="mailto:gothic-l-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe" style="text-decoration: none;">Unsubscribe</a> • <a href="http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/" style="text-decoration: none;">Terms of Use</a> </div>
</div>
<!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
</div> <!-- ygrp-msg -->
<!-- Sponsor -->
<!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
<div id="ygrp-sponsor" style="width:160px; float:right; clear:none; margin:0 0 25px 0; background: #fff;">
<!-- Start Recommendations -->
<div id="ygrp-reco">
</div>
<!-- End Recommendations -->
</div> <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
<div style="clear:both; color: #FFF; font-size:1px;">.</div>
</div>
<img src="http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1020598/grpspId=1705739206/msgId=11154/stime=1391886896" width="1" height="1"> <br>
<div style="color: #fff; height: 0;">__,_._,___</div>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</body>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlStart|**|-~-->
<head>
<style type="text/css">
<!--
#ygrp-mkp {
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
font-family: Arial;
margin: 10px 0;
padding: 0 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp hr {
border: 1px solid #d8d8d8;
}
#ygrp-mkp #hd {
color: #628c2a;
font-size: 85%;
font-weight: 700;
line-height: 122%;
margin: 10px 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp #ads {
margin-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad {
padding: 0 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad p {
margin: 0;
}
#ygrp-mkp .ad a {
color: #0000ff;
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc {
font-family: Arial;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd {
margin: 10px 0px;
font-weight: 700;
font-size: 78%;
line-height: 122%;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc .ad {
margin-bottom: 10px;
padding: 0 0;
}
#actions {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 11px;
padding: 10px 0;
}
#activity {
background-color: #e0ecee;
float: left;
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
padding: 10px;
}
#activity span {
font-weight: 700;
}
#activity span:first-child {
text-transform: uppercase;
}
#activity span a {
color: #5085b6;
text-decoration: none;
}
#activity span span {
color: #ff7900;
}
#activity span .underline {
text-decoration: underline;
}
.attach {
clear: both;
display: table;
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 12px;
padding: 10px 0;
width: 400px;
}
.attach div a {
text-decoration: none;
}
.attach img {
border: none;
padding-right: 5px;
}
.attach label {
display: block;
margin-bottom: 5px;
}
.attach label a {
text-decoration: none;
}
blockquote {
margin: 0 0 0 4px;
}
.bold {
font-family: Arial;
font-size: 13px;
font-weight: 700;
}
.bold a {
text-decoration: none;
}
dd.last p a {
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}
dd.last p span {
margin-right: 10px;
font-family: Verdana;
font-weight: 700;
}
dd.last p span.yshortcuts {
margin-right: 0;
}
div.attach-table div div a {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.attach-table {
width: 400px;
}
div.file-title a, div.file-title a:active, div.file-title a:hover, div.file-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
div.photo-title a, div.photo-title a:active, div.photo-title a:hover, div.photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration: none;
}
div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
font-weight: normal;
}
.green {
color: #628c2a;
}
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
o {
font-size: 0;
}
#photos div {
float: left;
width: 72px;
}
#photos div div {
border: 1px solid #666666;
height: 62px;
overflow: hidden;
width: 62px;
}
#photos div label {
color: #666666;
font-size: 10px;
overflow: hidden;
text-align: center;
white-space: nowrap;
width: 64px;
}
#reco-category {
font-size: 77%;
}
#reco-desc {
font-size: 77%;
}
.replbq {
margin: 4px;
}
#ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
/* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/
margin-right: 2px;
padding-right: 5px;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size: 13px;
font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif;
*font-size: small;
*font: x-small;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size: inherit;
font: 100%;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {
font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {
font:115% monospace;
*font-size:100%;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height: 1.22em;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo {
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-msg p a {
font-family: Verdana;
}
#ygrp-msg p#attach-count span {
color: #1E66AE;
font-weight: 700;
}
#ygrp-reco #reco-head {
color: #ff7900;
font-weight: 700;
}
#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a {
font-size: 130%;
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li {
font-size: 77%;
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul {
margin: 0;
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-text {
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p {
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt {
font-size: 120%;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right: none !important;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html>
<!-- end group email -->