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<p><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"><div><span>just like father...they would say fadar.....</span></div> <div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 1:07 AM, "OSCAR HERRE duke.co@sbcglobal.net [gothic-l]" <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <br><br> <div class="y_msg_container"><div id="yiv9429844861"><div>
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size: 12pt;background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div><span>I think modar fer mother sounds right....</span></div> <div class="yiv9429844861qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv9429844861yqt1506278400" id="yiv9429844861yqt44253"><div class="yiv9429844861yahoo_quoted"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 1:05 AM, "OSCAR HERRE duke.co@sbcglobal.net [gothic-l]" <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv9429844861y_msg_container"><div id="yiv9429844861"><div>
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size: 12pt;background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div><span>I haf reconstructed a few words to be....nail is nagla....ive reconstructed mail to magla......another is like....you are able or ept to do this....ju maganaida du tawei sah......side is seiden.....swe....so.....to hide...du heiden.....sindama alga waurdam....there are other words.....niu mag gamunna em......can not remember them......seinama wilja campt afta dumis....they will come back to me....god adaugai mith sah...awuilidon frijondam....</span></div> <div class="yiv9429844861qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv9429844861yqt1100957020" id="yiv9429844861yqt75850"><div class="yiv9429844861yahoo_quoted"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size: 12pt;">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Monday, May 26, 2014 7:43 PM, "Edmund Fairfax edmundfairfax@yahoo.ca [gothic-l]" <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv9429844861y_msg_container"><div id="yiv9429844861"><div>
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size: 12pt;background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div><span>A few observations in connection with the last contributions:</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span>1) Gothic <i>fadar </i>is indeed extant only once (Gal.4,6):</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span> insandida guth ahman sunaus seinis in hairtona izwara hropjandan 'Abba! Fadar!'</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span><i>"God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying 'Abba! Father!'</i> </span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br clear="none"></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">It is used here to gloss the -- in the context of the Greek
original -- exotic Aramaic word 'abba', which is perhaps an indication that the word <i>fadar</i> itself was perhaps felt to be exotic as well, either an archaic word or a borrowing from another Germanic dialect. Of course, the root <i>fadr-</i> is also found in the Gothic word <i>fadreins</i>, glossing Greek/Latin <i>patria</i>, but this could possibly be an instance of a "cranberry" morpheme in Gothic (cf. Mod. English <i>were-</i> in <i>werewolf</i>).</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br clear="none"></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">2) Even with
the knowledge of OHG <i>eide</i>, the cognates OE <i>athum</i>, OFris <i>athom</i>, OHG <i>eidum</i> 'son-in-law' complicate matters. According to Lehmann, <i>aithei</i> is a derivative, like the other forms given here, from Pre-Germanic *<i>oit-</i>, the source also of <i>aiths</i> 'oath'. Lehmann (1986: 20) suggests that <i>aithei</i> was originally "a Germanic word for woman given by legal process to a man; carries implication that children of <i>aithei</i> would inherit in contrast with those of concubine". Given the foregoing forms, reconstructing a Gothic <i>aithei</i> (were the noun not extant) would still be far from obvious.</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br clear="none"></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">3) As to Icelandic language purism, there is an official governmental organization called the -- sorry no accents -- <i>Islensk
Malnefnd</i> ('Icelandic Language Commission'), not to mention many professional societies which have their own language committees, that meet regularly to discuss proposed neologisms especially in the fields of science and technology. Modern Icelandic <i>simi</i> 'telephone', to give an example of their work, is simply an Old Norse word revived ('rope') with a new meaning. But these organizations, of course, are not attempting to reconstruct earlier forms of non-extant Norse lexical items and so have unlimited freedom in the invention of words. Alas! Something lacking in the English-speaking world, thanks to its fixation on the Graeco-Latin!</div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br clear="none"></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">Edmund</div> <div class="yiv9429844861qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv9429844861yqt1523633289" id="yiv9429844861yqt15297"><div class="yiv9429844861yahoo_quoted"> <div>
<div> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Monday, May 26, 2014 4:31:23 PM, "David Connolly dec.phd@sbcglobal.net [gothic-l]"
<gothic-l@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv9429844861y_msg_container"><div id="yiv9429844861"><div>
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<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><div><span>Dirk and everybody,</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br clear="none"><span></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span>All of Edmund's points are well taken indeed. The Gothic corpus that we have preserves 45 instances of 'aithei', including Nom., Acc., Dat., Gen. forms in the singular, and Acc. plural. The number of occurrences of *modar is *zero*. <br clear="none"></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span>Our best bet for deciding which form "the Goths" would have used is to query Gothic as it is actually preserved (i.e., Wulfila's Bible). Even if some Goths (some sub-dialects, some regions?) had a word like *modar, what we have
attested is 'aithei'. If we are so attracted to 'modar' due to its similarity to our modern cognates, then it seems that we are embarking on something other than recovering/reestablishing Gothic; rather, we are making up sort of a pan-Germanic lingo that might be fun but shouldn't be
called Gothic. (Similar sentiments apply to recent comments about 'wreitan' (sp?) for 'write'
versus [attested] meljan.)<br clear="none"></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><br clear="none"><span></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">It is interesting that there are a couple hundred (I believe) examples of 'atta' as father; but in keeping perhaps with Dirk's suggestion, there is indeed *one* example of 'fadar' in Wulfila. The Gothic word for father seems to have been 'atta', but with the lexical item of 'fadar' lurking in the recesses of at least some Goths' minds - ?<br clear="none"><span></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span>I appreciated the point a few messages ago about the restoration/enhancement of Hebrew in the 20th century in Israel; it is true, an ancient language was revamped and modernized to become a
major world vernacular. But of course, the Hebrew example had a large worldwide population of (mostly) Jews, coming together as a group with a shared identity in a specific region (Palestine); in other words, all the makings for a major linguistic coup, combining a traditional holy tongue with modernity. We Gothic fans, however, alas, are quite a ways from anything like that. We are reveling in the
fact that there are a few like-minded individuals out there at least in the world of
the internet. I am wondering how familiar any of y'all are with the process by which Modern Icelandic has dealt with new words (including technological, scientific, etc.)--I understand that they have a process of creating "natively" Icelandic versions of said new words. <br clear="none"></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span><br clear="none"></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span>Comments offered in all good fun and best wishes -</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span>David <br clear="none"></span></div><div><br clear="none"></div> <div class="yiv9429844861yqt7214705297" id="yiv9429844861yqt34658"><div> <div> <div dir="ltr"> <div class="yiv9429844861hr" style="margin: 5px 0px;padding: 0px;font-size: 0px;min-height: 0px;"></div> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> "d.faltin@hispeed.ch [gothic-l]" <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com><br clear="none">
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> gothic-l@yahoogroups.com <br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
Monday, May 26, 2014 3:48 PM<br clear="none"> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [gothic-l] Reconstructing Gothic<br clear="none"> </font> </div> <div class="yiv9429844861y_msg_container"><br clear="none"><div id="yiv9429844861"><div>
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<div>Hi Edmund,</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>your point regarding Gothic aithei (mother) is well taken and valid. However, just to add Old High German also preserved this form as "eide" meaning mother (in a certain legal context) and "fotar eidi" meaning nurse, i.e. woman nursing a child.</div><div>The problem would have been to decide which form the Goths would have used. My guess is that they also had a world like *modar, but it was simply not recorded.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Best</div><div>Dirk</div>
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div#ygrp-mlmsg #ygrp-msg p a span.yshortcuts {
font-family: Verdana;
font-size: 10px;
font-weight: normal;
}
.green {
color: #628c2a;
}
.MsoNormal {
margin: 0 0 0 0;
}
o {
font-size: 0;
}
#photos div {
float: left;
width: 72px;
}
#photos div div {
border: 1px solid #666666;
height: 62px;
overflow: hidden;
width: 62px;
}
#photos div label {
color: #666666;
font-size: 10px;
overflow: hidden;
text-align: center;
white-space: nowrap;
width: 64px;
}
#reco-category {
font-size: 77%;
}
#reco-desc {
font-size: 77%;
}
.replbq {
margin: 4px;
}
#ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
/* border-right: 0px solid #000;*/
margin-right: 2px;
padding-right: 5px;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size: 13px;
font-family: Arial, helvetica,clean, sans-serif;
*font-size: small;
*font: x-small;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size: inherit;
font: 100%;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {
font: 99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {
font:115% monospace;
*font-size:100%;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height: 1.22em;
}
#ygrp-mlmsg #logo {
padding-bottom: 10px;
}
#ygrp-msg p a {
font-family: Verdana;
}
#ygrp-msg p#attach-count span {
color: #1E66AE;
font-weight: 700;
}
#ygrp-reco #reco-head {
color: #ff7900;
font-weight: 700;
}
#ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom: 20px;
padding: 0px;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li a {
font-size: 130%;
text-decoration: none;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov li {
font-size: 77%;
list-style-type: square;
padding: 6px 0;
}
#ygrp-sponsor #ov ul {
margin: 0;
padding: 0 0 0 8px;
}
#ygrp-text {
font-family: Georgia;
}
#ygrp-text p {
margin: 0 0 1em 0;
}
#ygrp-text tt {
font-size: 120%;
}
#ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right: none !important;
}
-->
</style>
</head>
<!--~-|**|PrettyHtmlEnd|**|-~-->
</html>
<!-- end group email -->