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<p><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><div><span><br>Let me add to Marja's comments the reference D. H. Green, 'Language and Culture in early Germanic society' (Cambridge University Press, 1998) which sorts out a lot of the evidence for interconnectedness among the "branches" of Germanic, including Gothic. Bottom line, he recognizes some words (e.g. aithei, "Eide"; Bavarian dialectal 'Pherintag') as suggesting some contact/borrowing between Gothic language and southeastern dialect areas of Old High German, which makes sense from a geographical perspective. (Sorry can't give page numbers - typing from memory...)</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13.3333px;font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;background-color: transparent;font-style:
normal;"><span><br></span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13.3333px;font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;background-color: transparent;font-style: normal;"><span>Green's book is 400 pages of dense linguistic data, but it is worth the effort!</span></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);font-size: 13.3333px;font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;background-color: transparent;font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></div><div><br></div> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size: 10pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> "Marja Erwin marja-e@riseup.net [gothic-l]"
<gothic-l@yahoogroups.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> gothic-l@yahoogroups.com <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, May 27, 2014 5:47 PM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [gothic-l] Reconstructing Gothic<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv4884934814"><div>
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<div>Hmmm…</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>As far as I know, North and West Germanic have a good deal more contact with each other than with East Germanic. So North and West Germanic can’t really ‘bracket’ East Germanic.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>However, if we have early Germanic loanwords into some combination of Ossetic, Slavic, and Southern Italic/Southern Romance, Gothic seems like a pretty obvious source. Of course, we can’t always rule out Suebian, Lombard, and High German.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Also, there seem to be some odd cases. Lagarimanus, in Ammianus, would seem to have a West Germanic name.</div><br clear="none"><div><div>On May 27, 2014, at 3:20 PM, Weidemyr Basti <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:setiez@yahoo.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:setiez@yahoo.com">setiez@yahoo.com</a> [gothic-l] <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:gothic-l@yahoogroups.com">gothic-l@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="yiv4884934814Apple-interchange-newline" clear="none"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;"><div id="yiv4884934814ygrp-mlmsg" style="font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif;"><div id="yiv4884934814ygrp-msg"><div id="yiv4884934814ygrp-text" style="font-family:Georgia;"><div style="margin:0px 0px 1em;"><span style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">OHG and Old English are well researched and all over the etymological dictionaries but what made many of us interested in Gothic in the first place, was our own language's surprisingly many cognates. I guess it is hard to find a word which
was only preserved in OHG and Gothic. The Swedish Etymological Wordbook has this under "moder". I translate:</span></div><div style="background-color:rgb(255, 255, 255);font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span class="yiv4884934814class"><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span class="yiv4884934814class">Gothic has instead ai𐌸ei = OHG eidî, cmp. runic Sw. ai𐌸u Kärnbo and Finnish loanword äiti (about which most recently Ojansuu Neuphil. Mitteil. 19:58)</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span class="yiv4884934814class"><br clear="none"></span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span class="yiv4884934814class">(Can you see the thorn-signs in the above text, btw?)</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span class="yiv4884934814class"><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande',
sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">It seems to me these issues are important for getting the project going:</div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">1. Ensure the results of our work are properly mirrored, licensed and back-upped.</div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">2. Find a balance between reference languages that is acceptable to all.</div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">3. Limit the pace of work so that the few of us who know grammar will have time to
correct the most painful errors before they gain broad usage.</div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">4. Automate part of the decision-making process so the committee/mailing-list will not have to discuss everything but only the cases where someone disagrees with the computer.</div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;">If you are still around Roelingua, feel free to pick the nice parts of my ideas if
there are any. :)</div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span class="yiv4884934814class"><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:13px;font-family:HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal;"><span class="yiv4884934814class"> </span><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:11px;">RFC-gothic-l-2014-05-26: Point-based Gothic Reconstruction Adviser</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">1. A point-based evaluation is a complement to a manual approval process and a decision by a committee will take precedence over the verdict by this reconstruction adviser. Over the course of many decisions, the adviser will help a committee stay objective with regard to the balance of polation. It will also alleviate their work load so preliminary judgement will be passed automatically when members of the committee are occupied.</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">2. The reconstruction adviser should be implemented as a server-side application where many contributors can supply attestations and where software handles the evaluation.</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">3. The more points a lemma gets, the more likely it is Gothic. By using a threshold, sufficiently Gothic words may be singled out for inclusion in a lexicon.</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">4. We aim to recreate the Moeso-Gothic of year 350 Anno Domini.</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">5. Expressions from scriptures written in Wulfilan script and dated prior to 1000 AD are considered Gothic regardless of points.</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">6. Related languages are distributed in zones according to appendix A. This is so that geographical and
historical connectedness will be accounted for.</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">7. Points get awarded according to:</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">P = SUM [x=1 to 7 of language zones]( SUM [y=1 to a of attestations sorted by age] ( A(y)^y))</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">where A(y) is the number of points awarded to an attestation according to:</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">A(y) = 1.000001^(-ABS(year_of_attest_AD - 350_AD)^2)</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">ABS()
is the absolute value, so that it returns the time-distance in years from AD 350. A(y) will return a value just below 1 for attestations close to 350 AD and 0.368.. for attestations from year 1350 AD or 650 BC. A(y)^y will ensure that additional attests give points but fewer and fewer. "sorted by age" means, the ones closer to 350 AD will come earlier and have more weight. </span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Points awarded one form of an expression should affect the other forms to the extent their connection has been established.</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Appendix A</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Zone 1. OLD INDOEUROPEAN</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Sanskrit, Tocharian, Sogdian</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Zone 2. SEMITIC & CLASSIC</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Aramaic, Phoenician, Classical Latin, Homeric - Koine Greek</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Zone 3. NORTH-WESTERN</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Old Irish, Old English, Old West Norse (Icelandic, Norweigan, Faroese)</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Zone 4. WEST GERMANIC</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Frisian, Dutch, Low German</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Zone 5. EAST-NORDIC & BALTIC</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Gutnish, Scanian, Elfdalian, Samogitic, Old Swedish</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Zone 6. OHG</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Old High German</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Zone 7. SLAVIC</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">OCS, Old Slovenian, Russian</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;min-height:13px;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;"></span><br class="yiv4884934814class" clear="none"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Zone 8. OTHER</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="background-color:transparent;"></div><div class="yiv4884934814class" style="font-size:11px;font-family:Helvetica;"><span class="yiv4884934814class" style="letter-spacing:0px;">Finnish, Turkic, Illyrian, Celtic, later Greek &
Latin</span></div><div class="yiv4884934814qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br clear="none">
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