From sashavovin at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 07:49:18 2012
From: sashavovin at gmail.com (Alexander Vovin)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 21:49:18 -1000
Subject: conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <CADtT9hwLVpqeRPEjKt7JK3U+ZYanK26=YsFtdWgotF7QkSt4Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2012.214918.1000.SASHAVOVIN@GMAIL.COM>

Dear Nathan,

Very roughly speaking, but nouns and verbs behave very differently in this
respect in Japanese. Even within the verbal paradigm, older
grammaticalizations are different from more recent, although they can be
traced to very similar phonological forms, e,g., the paradigmaic form of
the verb yom- 'to count/read'

                                         Old Japanese        Late Middle
Japanese                         Modern Japanese
perfective                          yo2mi1taru            yomitaru
                                             yoNda
desiderative                      _____
yomitai                                                yomitai

Desiderative is much younger form than the perfective, and although both
are essentially identical phonologically. they show two very different
ref;exes in MJ.

Hope this helps,

Sasha


On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Nathan Hill <nathanwhill at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Historical Linguists,
>
> In a paper about Tibetan I am criticizing someone for proposing that
> the same segment became one thing in nouns and another thing in verbs.
> My neogrammarian heart tells me that sound changes are aware of
> phonetic environments only and not part of speech categories. Such a
> thing is thus only possible if verbs are phonetically different than
> nouns in a systematic way (which is of course possible).
>
> Anyhow, a reviewer tells me that proto-Uto-Aztecan initial *p becomes
> zero in Nahuatl nouns but is preserved in verbs and cites the pair
> (.-tl "water" vs -p.ca "to wash"). The reviewer does not cite a
> discussion of this and I am totally at sea in the Uto-Aztecan
> literature. But, if this is an uncontroversial part of Uto-Aztecan
> historical phonology surely it has given rise to the same
> methodological concerns that I raise (sound change should apply
> blindly).
>
> I would be very grateful for any discussion of this or advice on
> treatments of this question in literature.
>
> with gratitude,
> Nathan
> _______________________________________________
> Histling-l mailing list
> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>



-- 

Alexander Vovin
Professor of East Asian Languages and Literatures
Department of East Asian Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at Manoa, USA
========================
iustitiam magni facite, infirmos protegite
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From paoram at unipv.it  Sat Dec  1 11:18:31 2012
From: paoram at unipv.it (Paolo Ramat)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 12:18:31 +0100
Subject: conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <CAKDAMNQhTw60CGmFq313wHkP3+Xz1GLExAbncbA0LhOgUmULdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.121831.0100.PAORAM@UNIPV.IT>

Nathan Hill  wrote:

  “Dear Historical Linguists. [...]My neogrammarian heart tells me that sound changes are aware of phonetic environments only and not part of speech categories.”
  I have high respect for the Neogrammarians, but the statement above is a very strong one. It amounts to separate completely phonetics from grammar and syntax (or morphoyntax). If, say, a derivational suffix comes to modify the final part of a verbal root we can have a new basis in the word formation rule. For instance OGk. Nom. gàla “milk”, Genit. gàlak(t)os observes the rule that no OGk. word can end by a  stop consonant. This induces the morphologically bound sound change –k > 0 in the Nomin. A rule that does not apply to words such as galaktìzo “I’m breast-feeded”, galaktokòmos “shepherd” etc. .On its turn gala-, and not galak-,can be the basis form for compounds such as galathenòs “suckling child”.

Best.

Paolo

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Prof.Paolo Ramat
Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS )
Direttore del Centro "Lingue d'Europa: tipologia, storia e sociolinguistica" (LETiSS)
Palazzo del Broletto - Piazza della Vittoria

27100 Pavia
tel. ++390382375811
fax ++390382375899

From: Alexander Vovin 
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 8:49 AM
To: Nathan Hill 
Cc: histling-l 
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl

Dear Nathan,

Very roughly speaking, but nouns and verbs behave very differently in this respect in Japanese. Even within the verbal paradigm, older grammaticalizations are different from more recent, although they can be traced to very similar phonological forms, e,g., the paradigmaic form of the verb yom- 'to count/read'

                                         Old Japanese        Late Middle Japanese                         Modern Japanese
perfective                          yo2mi1taru            yomitaru                                              yoNda
desiderative                      _____                    yomitai                                                yomitai

Desiderative is much younger form than the perfective, and although both are essentially identical phonologically. they show two very different ref;exes in MJ.

Hope this helps,

Sasha



On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Nathan Hill <nathanwhill at gmail.com> wrote:

  Dear Historical Linguists,

  In a paper about Tibetan I am criticizing someone for proposing that
  the same segment became one thing in nouns and another thing in verbs.
  My neogrammarian heart tells me that sound changes are aware of
  phonetic environments only and not part of speech categories. Such a
  thing is thus only possible if verbs are phonetically different than
  nouns in a systematic way (which is of course possible).

  Anyhow, a reviewer tells me that proto-Uto-Aztecan initial *p becomes
  zero in Nahuatl nouns but is preserved in verbs and cites the pair
  (.-tl "water" vs -p.ca "to wash"). The reviewer does not cite a
  discussion of this and I am totally at sea in the Uto-Aztecan
  literature. But, if this is an uncontroversial part of Uto-Aztecan
  historical phonology surely it has given rise to the same
  methodological concerns that I raise (sound change should apply
  blindly).

  I would be very grateful for any discussion of this or advice on
  treatments of this question in literature.

  with gratitude,
  Nathan
  _______________________________________________
  Histling-l mailing list
  Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
  https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l




-- 

Alexander Vovin
Professor of East Asian Languages and Literatures
Department of East Asian Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at Manoa, USA
========================
iustitiam magni facite, infirmos protegite



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
Histling-l mailing list
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https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l

-- 

------------------------------

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From rgyalrongskad at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 11:34:22 2012
From: rgyalrongskad at gmail.com (Guillaume Jacques)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 12:34:22 +0100
Subject: Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <mailman.171.1354298423.3465.histling-l@mailman.rice.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.123422.0100.RGYALRONGSKAD@GMAIL.COM>

> I would be very grateful for any discussion of this or advice on
> treatments of this question in literature.
>

This phonetic change in Nahuatl is discussed by Campbell and Langacker
1978, part II (in International Journal of American Linguistics), p.201, ft
43. I think that they were the first to propose a morphological
conditioning for the loss of initial *p- (preservation only in verbs and
some kinship terms, because they are generally prefixed and therefore *p is
not word-initial in at least part of the paradigm).



-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://xiang.free.fr

http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/export_listeperso_xml.php?url_id=0000000003849
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From lass at iafrica.com  Sat Dec  1 12:36:39 2012
From: lass at iafrica.com (Roger Lass)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 14:36:39 +0200
Subject: FW:  Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CAAzt3zaPndOr_tkY-4urrq03pa_mkJPyM8WrXSyKinDgw4oc=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.143639.0200.LASS@IAFRICA.COM>

 

 

From: Guillaume Jacques [mailto:rgyalrongskad at gmail.com] 
Sent: 01 December 2012 01:57 PM
To: Roger Lass
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7

 

Dear professor Lass,

 

I think that your message was sent only to me, you may need to send it again to the list histling-l at mailman.rice.edu

 

Best regards,

 

Guillaume Jacques

2012/12/1 Roger Lass <lass at iafrica.com>

Just another remark on something that might belong here. There is a change that occurs in many Middle English dialects, where the OE past participle prefix ge- [je] < [i], spelled i or y. It can also delete, but when it remains after about the 13th century it occurs only in that form. It persists variably up to at least the 17th century, usually spelled y, as in yclept ‘called’ < OE ge-cleopod. No other instances of [je] do this as far as I know, so the change is not only restricted to a particular morphological category but to one member of the category. There are also cases of metathesis and epenthesis in Middle English restricted only to two lexical items, and at least one sound change in Irish that is restricted to one item. I can provide references on those two cases if anybody is interested.

RL

 

From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Guillaume Jacques
Sent: 01 December 2012 01:34 PM
To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7

 

 

 

I would be very grateful for any discussion of this or advice on
treatments of this question in literature.

 

This phonetic change in Nahuatl is discussed by Campbell and Langacker 1978, part II (in International Journal of American Linguistics), p.201, ft 43. I think that they were the first to propose a morphological conditioning for the loss of initial *p- (preservation only in verbs and some kinship terms, because they are generally prefixed and therefore *p is not word-initial in at least part of the paradigm).

 

 

 

-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://xiang.free.fr
 http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/export_listeperso_xml.php?url_id=0000000003849





 

-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://xiang.free.fr
 http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/export_listeperso_xml.php?url_id=0000000003849

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From mltarpent at hotmail.com  Sat Dec  1 15:12:14 2012
From: mltarpent at hotmail.com (Marie-Lucie Tarpent)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 11:12:14 -0400
Subject: conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <085D195D6A5A435080C03E3E5EC4A984@PaoloPC>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.111214.0400.MLTARPENT@HOTMAIL.COM>


Hello,

Here is another counterexample to the absolute rigidity of a phonetic process, from the Nisqa'a language (British Columbia, Canada):  a -t pronominal suffix (3rd sg) is phonologically deleted before a "connective" (consisting of a fricative "s" or "L" (lateral)) under most conditions), but with one exception, as shown below:  (all ex's here use the 'non-determinate' connective =L, used before most nouns; transcription is phonemic):

Examples in (1) show the most common type of transitive clause (here introduced by an AUX):  the connective is morphosyntactically part of the noun phrase  but phonologically attached to the previous word:

(1) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L hanaq'=L kwila             'The woman is/was making the [traditional] cape/blanket' 
PROG.AUX=3ERG make[-3]=CONN woman=CONN blanket

(1a) Yukw=t jap-t                                         'She is/was making it'

(1aa) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L kwila                         'She is/was making the blanket'
(1ab) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L hanaq'                      'The woman is/was making it'

In (1aa) and (1ab), only the semantics (and, in speech, lesser stress on the subject) indicate whether the noun is subject or object (if there might be ambiguity, both nouns would be mentioned in the sentence, as in (1)).

In (1b) the suffix appears in front of a following q (since only =s and =L cause it to delete), but the postclitic morpheme ==qat 'quotative, hearsay' loses its own final t before the following connective (but the deleting rule does not apply if the phoneme t is part of a previous word):

1b) Yukw=t jap-t==qa[t]=L hanaq'=L kwila   'I hear(d) that the woman is was making the blanket'  
                        ==hearsay

1c) Yukw=t jap-t==qat                                 ''I hear(d) she was making it


Examples in (2) illustrate another type of clause ("predicate-focused"), where the [t] is preserved to indicate the pronominal subject:

(2)  Jap-∂-[t]=L hanaq'=L kwila                     'The woman MADE the blanket' (eg not bought it)
    make-NOMZ-[3]                                    (lit The blanket is what the woman MADE, ... the woman's MAKING) 

(2a)  Jap-∂-t                                               'She MADE it'

Compare (2aa) and (2ab) with (1aa) and (1ab) above:  here the suffix -t is preserved phonologically when the noun it refers to is not mentioned in the sentence:

(2aa) Jap-∂-t=L kwila                                     'She MADE the blanket'
(2ab) Jap-∂-[-t]=L hanaq'                               'The woman MADE it'

Only the grammatical difference, in this particular type of clause, justifies the phonological preservation of the suffix. 

(As in the (1) examples, addition of ==qat would make the -t appear in both sentences).   

From: paoram at unipv.it
To: sashavovin at gmail.com; nathanwhill at gmail.com
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 12:18:31 +0100
CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl




Nathan Hill  wrote:


  “Dear Historical Linguists. [...]My 
  neogrammarian heart tells me that sound changes are aware of phonetic 
  environments only and not part of speech categories.”
  I have high respect for the Neogrammarians, 
  but the statement above is a very strong one. It amounts to separate 
  completely phonetics from grammar and syntax (or morphoyntax). If, say, a 
  derivational suffix comes to modify the final part of a verbal root 
  we can have a new basis in the word 
  formation rule. For instance OGk. Nom. gàla “milk”, Genit. 
  gàlak(t)os observes the rule that no OGk. word can end by a  
  stop consonant. This induces the morphologically bound sound change –k > 0 
  in the Nomin. A rule that does not apply to words such as galaktìzo 
  “I’m breast-feeded”, galaktokòmos “shepherd” etc. .On 
  its turn gala-, and not galak-,can be the basis form for compounds such as 
  galathenòs “suckling child”.
 
Best.
 
Paolo
 
°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Prof.Paolo 
Ramat
Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS )
Direttore del 
Centro "Lingue d'Europa: tipologia, storia e sociolinguistica" 
(LETiSS)
Palazzo del Broletto - Piazza della Vittoria

27100 
Pavia
tel. ++390382375811
fax ++390382375899


 

From: Alexander Vovin 
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 8:49 AM
To: Nathan Hill 
Cc: histling-l 
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in 
Nahuatl
 
Dear 
Nathan,

Very roughly speaking, but nouns and verbs behave very 
differently in this respect in Japanese. Even within the verbal paradigm, older 
grammaticalizations are different from more recent, although they can be traced 
to very similar phonological forms, e,g., the paradigmaic form of the verb yom- 
'to 
count/read'

                                         
Old Japanese        Late Middle 
Japanese                         
Modern 
Japanese
perfective                          
yo2mi1taru            
yomitaru                                              
yoNda
desiderative                      
_____                    
yomitai                                                
yomitai

Desiderative is much younger form than the perfective, and 
although both are essentially identical phonologically. they show two very 
different ref;exes in MJ.

Hope this helps,

Sasha



On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Nathan Hill <nathanwhill at gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Historical Linguists,

In a paper about Tibetan I 
  am criticizing someone for proposing that
the same segment became one thing 
  in nouns and another thing in verbs.
My neogrammarian heart tells me that 
  sound changes are aware of
phonetic environments only and not part of 
  speech categories. Such a
thing is thus only possible if verbs are 
  phonetically different than
nouns in a systematic way (which is of course 
  possible).

Anyhow, a reviewer tells me that proto-Uto-Aztecan initial 
  *p becomes
zero in Nahuatl nouns but is preserved in verbs and cites the 
  pair
(.-tl "water" vs -p.ca "to 
  wash"). The reviewer does not cite a
discussion of this and I am totally at 
  sea in the Uto-Aztecan
literature. But, if this is an uncontroversial part 
  of Uto-Aztecan
historical phonology surely it has given rise to the 
  same
methodological concerns that I raise (sound change should 
  apply
blindly).

I would be very grateful for any discussion of this 
  or advice on
treatments of this question in literature.

with 
  gratitude,
Nathan
_______________________________________________
Histling-l 
  mailing list
Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l


-- 

Alexander Vovin
Professor of East Asian Languages 
and Literatures
Department of East Asian Languages and 
Literatures
University of Hawai'i at Manoa, 
USA
========================
iustitiam magni facite, infirmos 
protegite



_______________________________________________
Histling-l mailing 
list
Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l





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Diventa anche tu sponsor dei nostri ricercatori. Scegli di destinare il 5 per mille all’Università di Pavia: offrirai nuove opportunità alla ricerca, ai giovani e al territorio. Un gesto che non costa nulla e costruisce tanto. C.F. dell’Università di Pavia 80007270186.
Please note that the above message is addressed only to individuals filing Italian income tax returns.
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From lameen at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 15:38:08 2012
From: lameen at gmail.com (Lameen Souag)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 16:38:08 +0100
Subject: Histling-l Digest, Vol 68, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.67780.1354374744.7799.histling-l@mailman.rice.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.163808.0100.LAMEEN@GMAIL.COM>

In many modern Arabic varieties, final short vowels are preserved only
in personal pronouns.  For example, in Algerian Arabic (compared to
Classical):

'anta > nta "you m. sg."
'anti > nti "you f. sg."
huwa > huwwa "he"
hiya > hiyya "she"

vs.

kataba > ktəb "he wrote"
'ayna > win "where"
'amsi > yaməs "yesterday".

(Most final short vowels were case/mood markers, but in all three of
these examples they were invariant and obligatory in Classical
Arabic.)

I'm not aware of any work on this, but I assume it relates to
frequency and functional load.

Regards
Lameen Souag

> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Nathan Hill <nathanwhill at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Historical Linguists,
>
> In a paper about Tibetan I
>   am criticizing someone for proposing that
> the same segment became one thing
>   in nouns and another thing in verbs.
> My neogrammarian heart tells me that
>   sound changes are aware of
> phonetic environments only and not part of
>   speech categories. Such a
> thing is thus only possible if verbs are
>   phonetically different than
> nouns in a systematic way (which is of course
>   possible).
>
> Anyhow, a reviewer tells me that proto-Uto-Aztecan initial
>   *p becomes
> zero in Nahuatl nouns but is preserved in verbs and cites the
>   pair
> (.-tl "water" vs -p.ca "to
>   wash"). The reviewer does not cite a
> discussion of this and I am totally at
>   sea in the Uto-Aztecan
> literature. But, if this is an uncontroversial part
>   of Uto-Aztecan
> historical phonology surely it has given rise to the
>   same
> methodological concerns that I raise (sound change should
>   apply
> blindly).
>
> I would be very grateful for any discussion of this
>   or advice on
> treatments of this question in literature.
>
> with
>   gratitude,
> Nathan
> _______________________________________________
> Histling-l
>   mailing list
> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
_______________________________________________
Histling-l mailing list
Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l

From nathanwhill at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 15:53:25 2012
From: nathanwhill at gmail.com (Nathan Hill)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 15:53:25 +0000
Subject: conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <BAY171-W125517A90EEAA479C340B0A6420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.155325.0000.NATHANWHILL@GMAIL.COM>

Dear List,

I would like to thank everyone for the examples of analogical pressure
resisting or undoing phonetically conditioned sound changes. (I am
surprised that the Greek -s future did not come up). I would
particularly like to thank Guillaume Jacques for pointing me to the
article by Campbell and to Magnus Hansen for drawing my attention to
Karen Dakin's Evolucion Fonologica del Proto-Nahuatl, which have
satisfied my question about Uto-Aztecan *p-.

Nathan
_______________________________________________
Histling-l mailing list
Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l


From bjoseph at ling.ohio-state.edu  Sat Dec  1 16:17:51 2012
From: bjoseph at ling.ohio-state.edu (Brian Joseph)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 11:17:51 -0500
Subject: conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <BAY171-W125517A90EEAA479C340B0A6420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.111751.0500.>

This discussion of an important aspect of historical methodology is all
very interesting, but (without critiquing any of the examples presented
except for the Greek final -n case, on which see below) I would urge
everyone to read the excellent review article by Hans Henrich Hock on
Raimo Anttila's 1972 textbook on historical linguistics; the review was
published in Language in 1976 (volume 52.1, pp. 202-220).  What is
especially important in it is contained in pp. 211-220 as Hock offers a
detailed critique of Anttila's many examples (actually, Hock shows,
putative examples) of grammatically conditioned sound change.  Hock
succeeds in proposing compelling accounts in each case that involve
phonetically conditioned sound change coupled with analogy (or sometimes
other processes of change such as borrowing) that for the most part are
more explanatory than a grammatical conditioning account.  I would suggest
that the same strategy could be employed for the cases brought up in the
past several messages that started with Nathan Hill's query (in this way,
I am solidly with Nathan in not wanting to give up the strongest version
of the Neogrammarian stance on sound change, not without a fight, so to
speak).

As for the Greek, Dr. Karatsareas is correct, as far as his data goes, but
it is very likely that the -n# in the genitive plural is either a
restoration from learned Greek (always an issue in dealing with Greek) or
else restored as a sandhi variant (e.g. if originally preserved before
vowels and lost before (certain) consonants).  I base this on the fact
that 19th century sources, especially Albert Thumb's Handbook of the
Modern Greek
Vernacular, originally published in German in the 1890s but known widely
in its 1912 English translation), give the genitive plural regularly as
being in -o (<-ω>, i.e. Greek omega) or -one (<-ωνε>); the -o variant
suggests loss of -n#, and the -one variant suggests the accretion of an -e
from a following word (a sort of resegmentation), though, as I mentioned,
restoration from the learned language, essentially borrowing from a
diglossically higher register perhaps even mediated by the orthography (in
which case it could be viewed as borrowing from the written language)
cannot be dismissed easily in the Greek sociolinguistic context.

As I see it, what is at stake in allowing nonphonetic conditioning of
sound change is that with only phonetic conditioning we have a basis for
understanding how sound change can get started, how it originates (the
point of actuation, some might call it) whereas -- following Hock -- if we
give up phonetic conditioning, we have no explanatory basis for the
actuation.  And letting in grammatical conditioning in even one case (as
Nathan seems to realize) would mean that there would never be a case in
which we could rule it out; it would always be an unexplanatory
possibility for the starting point of a sound change.  If anyone is
interested, I lay these issues out more fully in my 1999 paper
"Utterance-Finality: Framing the Issues", in B. Palek, O. Fujimura, &. B.
Joseph (eds.) Proceedings of LP ‘98 (4th Linguistics and Phonetics
Conference). Prague: Charles University Press (1999), Vol. 2: 3-13
(downloadable as #138 from the publication list on my website,
www.ling.osu.edu/~bjoseph).

So count me as a strict Neogrammarian, a badge I am proud to wear!

--Brian

Brian D. Joseph
The Ohio State University


>
> Hello,
>
> Here is another counterexample to the absolute rigidity of a phonetic
> process, from the Nisqa'a language (British Columbia, Canada):  a -t
> pronominal suffix (3rd sg) is phonologically deleted before a "connective"
> (consisting of a fricative "s" or "L" (lateral)) under most conditions),
> but with one exception, as shown below:  (all ex's here use the
> 'non-determinate' connective =L, used before most nouns; transcription is
> phonemic):
>
> Examples in (1) show the most common type of transitive clause (here
> introduced by an AUX):  the connective is morphosyntactically part of the
> noun phrase  but phonologically attached to the previous word:
>
> (1) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L hanaq'=L kwila             'The woman is/was making
> the [traditional] cape/blanket'
> PROG.AUX=3ERG make[-3]=CONN woman=CONN blanket
>
> (1a) Yukw=t jap-t                                         'She is/was
> making it'
>
> (1aa) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L kwila                         'She is/was making
> the blanket'
> (1ab) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L hanaq'                      'The woman is/was
> making it'
>
> In (1aa) and (1ab), only the semantics (and, in speech, lesser stress on
> the subject) indicate whether the noun is subject or object (if there
> might be ambiguity, both nouns would be mentioned in the sentence, as in
> (1)).
>
> In (1b) the suffix appears in front of a following q (since only =s and =L
> cause it to delete), but the postclitic morpheme ==qat 'quotative,
> hearsay' loses its own final t before the following connective (but the
> deleting rule does not apply if the phoneme t is part of a previous
> word):
>
> 1b) Yukw=t jap-t==qa[t]=L hanaq'=L kwila   'I hear(d) that the woman is
> was making the blanket'
>                         ==hearsay
>
> 1c) Yukw=t jap-t==qat                                 ''I hear(d) she was
> making it
>
>
> Examples in (2) illustrate another type of clause ("predicate-focused"),
> where the [t] is preserved to indicate the pronominal subject:
>
> (2)  Jap-∂-[t]=L hanaq'=L kwila                     'The woman MADE the
> blanket' (eg not bought it)
>     make-NOMZ-[3]                                    (lit The blanket is
> what the woman MADE, ... the woman's MAKING)
>
> (2a)  Jap-∂-t                                               'She MADE it'
>
> Compare (2aa) and (2ab) with (1aa) and (1ab) above:  here the suffix -t is
> preserved phonologically when the noun it refers to is not mentioned in
> the sentence:
>
> (2aa) Jap-∂-t=L kwila                                     'She MADE the
> blanket'
> (2ab) Jap-∂-[-t]=L hanaq'                               'The woman MADE
> it'
>
> Only the grammatical difference, in this particular type of clause,
> justifies the phonological preservation of the suffix.
>
> (As in the (1) examples, addition of ==qat would make the -t appear in
> both sentences).
>
> From: paoram at unipv.it
> To: sashavovin at gmail.com; nathanwhill at gmail.com
> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 12:18:31 +0100
> CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl
>
>
>
>
> Nathan Hill  wrote:
>
>
>   “Dear Historical Linguists. [...]My
>   neogrammarian heart tells me that sound changes are aware of phonetic
>   environments only and not part of speech categories.”
>   I have high respect for the Neogrammarians,
>   but the statement above is a very strong one. It amounts to separate
>   completely phonetics from grammar and syntax (or morphoyntax). If, say,
> a
>   derivational suffix comes to modify the final part of a verbal root
>   we can have a new basis in the word
>   formation rule. For instance OGk. Nom. gàla “milk”, Genit.
>   gàlak(t)os observes the rule that no OGk. word can end by a
>   stop consonant. This induces the morphologically bound sound change –k >
> 0
>   in the Nomin. A rule that does not apply to words such as galaktìzo
>   “I’m breast-feeded”, galaktokòmos “shepherd” etc. .On
>   its turn gala-, and not galak-,can be the basis form for compounds such
> as
>   galathenòs “suckling child”.
>
> Best.
>
> Paolo
>
> °°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
> Prof.Paolo
> Ramat
> Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS )
> Direttore del
> Centro "Lingue d'Europa: tipologia, storia e sociolinguistica"
> (LETiSS)
> Palazzo del Broletto - Piazza della Vittoria
>
> 27100
> Pavia
> tel. ++390382375811
> fax ++390382375899
>
>
>
>
> From: Alexander Vovin
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 8:49 AM
> To: Nathan Hill
> Cc: histling-l
> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in
> Nahuatl
>
> Dear
> Nathan,
>
> Very roughly speaking, but nouns and verbs behave very
> differently in this respect in Japanese. Even within the verbal paradigm,
> older
> grammaticalizations are different from more recent, although they can be
> traced
> to very similar phonological forms, e,g., the paradigmaic form of the verb
> yom-
> 'to
> count/read'
>
>
> Old Japanese        Late Middle
> Japanese
> Modern
> Japanese
> perfective
> yo2mi1taru
> yomitaru
> yoNda
> desiderative
> _____
> yomitai
> yomitai
>
> Desiderative is much younger form than the perfective, and
> although both are essentially identical phonologically. they show two very
> different ref;exes in MJ.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Nathan Hill <nathanwhill at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Historical Linguists,
>
> In a paper about Tibetan I
>   am criticizing someone for proposing that
> the same segment became one thing
>   in nouns and another thing in verbs.
> My neogrammarian heart tells me that
>   sound changes are aware of
> phonetic environments only and not part of
>   speech categories. Such a
> thing is thus only possible if verbs are
>   phonetically different than
> nouns in a systematic way (which is of course
>   possible).
>
> Anyhow, a reviewer tells me that proto-Uto-Aztecan initial
>   *p becomes
> zero in Nahuatl nouns but is preserved in verbs and cites the
>   pair
> (.-tl "water" vs -p.ca "to
>   wash"). The reviewer does not cite a
> discussion of this and I am totally at
>   sea in the Uto-Aztecan
> literature. But, if this is an uncontroversial part
>   of Uto-Aztecan
> historical phonology surely it has given rise to the
>   same
> methodological concerns that I raise (sound change should
>   apply
> blindly).
>
> I would be very grateful for any discussion of this
>   or advice on
> treatments of this question in literature.
>
> with
>   gratitude,
> Nathan
> _______________________________________________
> Histling-l
>   mailing list
> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>
>
> --
>
> Alexander Vovin
> Professor of East Asian Languages
> and Literatures
> Department of East Asian Languages and
> Literatures
> University of Hawai'i at Manoa,
> USA
> ========================
> iustitiam magni facite, infirmos
> protegite
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Histling-l mailing
> list
> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>
>
>
>
>
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From ylfenn at earthlink.net  Sun Dec  2 09:32:53 2012
From: ylfenn at earthlink.net (Martin Huld)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 04:32:53 -0500
Subject: FW:  Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7
Message-ID: <SUN.2.DEC.2012.043253.0500.YLFENN@EARTHLINK.NET>

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From lass at iafrica.com  Sun Dec  2 10:05:06 2012
From: lass at iafrica.com (Roger Lass)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:05:06 +0200
Subject: FW:  Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <9114101.1354440773892.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.DEC.2012.120506.0200.LASS@IAFRICA.COM>

Right, it is in fact whichever prefix ge-, if they’re not all instance of the perfective. I was a bit sloppy there. Shouldn’t answer emails at night.

 

The loss of –n in strong past participles is very variable, and many verbs have two forms, depending on region or style. Thus the famous got/gotten, in my speech hid ~ hidden (rarely), but in the rest of the class I strong verbs a lot of unpredictability, bite/bitten drive/driven but shit(e)/shit, never *shitten as far as I know in any modern variety, though Chaucer uses it as an attributive (I think the line is ‘A clene shepherd and a shitten shepe’), though it was around at least as late as the `14th century. These may not be properly morphologically conditioned sound changes but rather retweakings of morphology. The general behaviour of different affixes, even if phonologically the same, can show differences, and one or more change affecting the same segment-type can occur in the same text.

 

The point about loss of –n in nasal-stem class III verbs is interesting; I’d never noticed that before.

R

 

From: Martin Huld [mailto:ylfenn at earthlink.net] 
Sent: 02 December 2012 11:33 AM
To: Roger Lass; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] FW: Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7

 

There is also OE genoh > ME ynow, ynogh > NE enough and OE gewis > ME ywis 'surely'; these would seem to indicate that the conditioning factor was phonological, ie in unstressed syllables immediately before a stressed syllable.  While most of these examples would come from the perfect participles, there were other instances.  

Consider the fate of OE final [n].  It was lost in NE (and already in ONorthumbrian and OFris.) in the infinitive and the nominative plural of n-stem nouns; OE writan > NE write; naman > NE name; but it is partially preserved in the perfect participle OE (ge)writen, (ge)giefen  > NE written, given.  OFris.  writa, nama, Now it is certainly subject to later deletion if there is another [n] in the stem ie OE (ge)funden, gesungen > NE found, sung.   

-----Original Message----- 
From: Roger Lass 
Sent: Dec 1, 2012 4:36 AM 
To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu 
Subject: [Histling-l] FW: Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7 




 

 

From: Guillaume Jacques [mailto:rgyalrongskad at gmail.com] 
Sent: 01 December 2012 01:57 PM
To: Roger Lass
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7

 

Dear professor Lass,

 

I think that your message was sent only to me, you may need to send it again to the list histling-l at mailman.rice.edu

 

Best regards,

 

Guillaume Jacques

2012/12/1 Roger Lass <lass at iafrica.com>

Just another remark on something that might belong here. There is a change that occurs in many Middle English dialects, where the OE past participle prefix ge- [je] < [i], spelled i or y. It can also delete, but when it remains after about the 13th century it occurs only in that form. It persists variably up to at least the 17th century, usually spelled y, as in yclept ‘called’ < OE ge-cleopod. No other instances of [je] do this as far as I know, so the change is not only restricted to a particular morphological category but to one member of the category. There are also cases of metathesis and epenthesis in Middle English restricted only to two lexical items, and at least one sound change in Irish that is restricted to one item. I can provide references on those two cases if anybody is interested.

RL

 

From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Guillaume Jacques
Sent: 01 December 2012 01:34 PM
To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7

 

 

 

I would be very grateful for any discussion of this or advice on
treatments of this question in literature.

 

This phonetic change in Nahuatl is discussed by Campbell and Langacker 1978, part II (in International Journal of American Linguistics), p.201, ft 43. I think that they were the first to propose a morphological conditioning for the loss of initial *p- (preservation only in verbs and some kinship terms, because they are generally prefixed and therefore *p is not word-initial in at least part of the paradigm).

 

 

 

-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://xiang.free.fr
 http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/export_listeperso_xml.php?url_id=0000000003849





 

-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://xiang.free.fr
 http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/export_listeperso_xml.php?url_id=0000000003849

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From bdc3 at rice.edu  Mon Dec 10 13:07:08 2012
From: bdc3 at rice.edu (Benjamin Chauvette)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 07:07:08 -0600
Subject: Final CfP: Rice Working Papers in Linguistics. Deadline this
 Friday.
Message-ID: <MON.10.DEC.2012.070708.0600.>

RICE WORKING PAPERS IN LINGUISTICS, VOLUME 4
FINAL CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS
DEADLINE: Friday, December 14, 2012

Rice Working Papers in Linguistics is currently soliciting submissions 
for its fourth volume. Please see the guidelines below and consider 
submitting your work to the editors at <rwpl at rice.edu>.

===============

Rice Working Papers in Linguistics (RWPL; ISSN 1944-0081) is a refereed, 
open-access online publication of the Rice Linguistics Society, with 
support from the Department of Linguistics at Rice University in 
Houston, TX.

RWPL publishes working papers and squibs that emphasize functional, 
usage-based approaches to the study of language. The publication focuses 
on issues related to empirical aspects of linguistics. To that end, we 
especially welcome methodological and ethical discussions, 
sociolinguistic and areal survey reports, field reports, and project 
post-mortems. Presentations of intriguing or difficult data, 
particularly ones that merit further research, are also encouraged.

With the exception of ESL/TESOL and speech-language pathology, 
submissions in almost all subfields of linguistics will be considered 
for publication. Acceptable subfields include, but are not limited to 
cognitive/ functional linguistics, documentary and descriptive 
linguistics, language revitalization, sociolinguistics (including 
sociophonetics), discourse and corpus linguistics, language typology and 
universals, language change and grammaticalization, laboratory phonetics 
and phonology, language processing, and psycholinguistics.

Information about past volumes of the working papers is available at 
<http://rls.rice.edu/rwpl/>.

---------------

Submissions must meet the following minimum style requirements:

* Maximum 30 pages in length, not including references,
appendices, tables, and figures
* 12pt font size, using one of the following typefaces:
- Linux Libertine
- FreeSerif
- Liberation Serif
- Times New Roman
* One inch (1”) margins on all sides
* Letter sized paper (8.5”x11”)
* Double spaced throughout

In addition, to ensure a fair review process, all information that could 
reveal a paper's authorship must be removed from both its content and 
metadata prior to its submission.

Accepted submissions will be required to follow the RWPL Style Sheet, 
available at <http://rls.rice.edu/rwpl/style-sheet/>.

---------------

RWPL accepts only electronic submissions, which must be emailed to the 
editors at <rwpl at rice.edu>. The body of the email must contain the 
following information:

* Title of paper
* Author name(s)
* Author affiliation(s)
* Author contact information
* Acknowledgments (if desired)

All submissions must also attach the following items as separate files 
to the email:

* A document containing the title of the paper, at least
3 keywords, and a maximum 350 word abstract
* A copy of the paper in one of the following formats:
- Word 97/2000/XP/2003 (.doc)
- Word 2007/2010 (.docx)
- OpenDocument (.odt)
- LaTeX (.tex)
* A copy of the paper as a PDF


The deadline for submissions is Friday, December 14, 2012.

Questions regarding the submissions process or style requirements may be 
addressed to the editors via email at <rwpl at rice.edu>.

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From d.t.t.haug at ifikk.uio.no  Mon Dec 17 21:11:41 2012
From: d.t.t.haug at ifikk.uio.no (Dag Haug)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 22:11:41 +0100
Subject: ICHL in Oslo 2013 Second call for papers
Message-ID: <MON.17.DEC.2012.221141.0100.D.T.T.HAUG@IFIKK.UIO.NO>

Dear all,

We have now added information about the ICHL 21 workshops on our web page:

http://www.hf.uio.no/ifikk/english/research/events/ichl2013/workshops/

The call for papers is open and you can submit papers to the 
general session or to one of the workshops via our EasyChair page: 

http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=ichl21


Key dates for this event are as follows:

February 1, 2013 - deadline for submission of abstracts
beginning of April 2013 - notification
May 1, 2013 - deadline for registration
August 5-9, 2013 - conference

More information on our web site: 
http://www.hf.uio.no/ifikk/english/research/events/ichl2013/

With best wishes,
Dag Haug


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From sashavovin at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 07:49:18 2012
From: sashavovin at gmail.com (Alexander Vovin)
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2012 21:49:18 -1000
Subject: conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <CADtT9hwLVpqeRPEjKt7JK3U+ZYanK26=YsFtdWgotF7QkSt4Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.30.NOV.2012.214918.1000.SASHAVOVIN@GMAIL.COM>

Dear Nathan,

Very roughly speaking, but nouns and verbs behave very differently in this
respect in Japanese. Even within the verbal paradigm, older
grammaticalizations are different from more recent, although they can be
traced to very similar phonological forms, e,g., the paradigmaic form of
the verb yom- 'to count/read'

                                         Old Japanese        Late Middle
Japanese                         Modern Japanese
perfective                          yo2mi1taru            yomitaru
                                             yoNda
desiderative                      _____
yomitai                                                yomitai

Desiderative is much younger form than the perfective, and although both
are essentially identical phonologically. they show two very different
ref;exes in MJ.

Hope this helps,

Sasha


On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Nathan Hill <nathanwhill at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Historical Linguists,
>
> In a paper about Tibetan I am criticizing someone for proposing that
> the same segment became one thing in nouns and another thing in verbs.
> My neogrammarian heart tells me that sound changes are aware of
> phonetic environments only and not part of speech categories. Such a
> thing is thus only possible if verbs are phonetically different than
> nouns in a systematic way (which is of course possible).
>
> Anyhow, a reviewer tells me that proto-Uto-Aztecan initial *p becomes
> zero in Nahuatl nouns but is preserved in verbs and cites the pair
> (.-tl "water" vs -p.ca "to wash"). The reviewer does not cite a
> discussion of this and I am totally at sea in the Uto-Aztecan
> literature. But, if this is an uncontroversial part of Uto-Aztecan
> historical phonology surely it has given rise to the same
> methodological concerns that I raise (sound change should apply
> blindly).
>
> I would be very grateful for any discussion of this or advice on
> treatments of this question in literature.
>
> with gratitude,
> Nathan
> _______________________________________________
> Histling-l mailing list
> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>



-- 

Alexander Vovin
Professor of East Asian Languages and Literatures
Department of East Asian Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at Manoa, USA
========================
iustitiam magni facite, infirmos protegite
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From paoram at unipv.it  Sat Dec  1 11:18:31 2012
From: paoram at unipv.it (Paolo Ramat)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 12:18:31 +0100
Subject: conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <CAKDAMNQhTw60CGmFq313wHkP3+Xz1GLExAbncbA0LhOgUmULdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.121831.0100.PAORAM@UNIPV.IT>

Nathan Hill  wrote:

  ?Dear Historical Linguists. [...]My neogrammarian heart tells me that sound changes are aware of phonetic environments only and not part of speech categories.?
  I have high respect for the Neogrammarians, but the statement above is a very strong one. It amounts to separate completely phonetics from grammar and syntax (or morphoyntax). If, say, a derivational suffix comes to modify the final part of a verbal root we can have a new basis in the word formation rule. For instance OGk. Nom. g?la ?milk?, Genit. g?lak(t)os observes the rule that no OGk. word can end by a  stop consonant. This induces the morphologically bound sound change ?k > 0 in the Nomin. A rule that does not apply to words such as galakt?zo ?I?m breast-feeded?, galaktok?mos ?shepherd? etc. .On its turn gala-, and not galak-,can be the basis form for compounds such as galathen?s ?suckling child?.

Best.

Paolo

??????????????????????????????????????????????
Prof.Paolo Ramat
Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS )
Direttore del Centro "Lingue d'Europa: tipologia, storia e sociolinguistica" (LETiSS)
Palazzo del Broletto - Piazza della Vittoria

27100 Pavia
tel. ++390382375811
fax ++390382375899

From: Alexander Vovin 
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 8:49 AM
To: Nathan Hill 
Cc: histling-l 
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl

Dear Nathan,

Very roughly speaking, but nouns and verbs behave very differently in this respect in Japanese. Even within the verbal paradigm, older grammaticalizations are different from more recent, although they can be traced to very similar phonological forms, e,g., the paradigmaic form of the verb yom- 'to count/read'

                                         Old Japanese        Late Middle Japanese                         Modern Japanese
perfective                          yo2mi1taru            yomitaru                                              yoNda
desiderative                      _____                    yomitai                                                yomitai

Desiderative is much younger form than the perfective, and although both are essentially identical phonologically. they show two very different ref;exes in MJ.

Hope this helps,

Sasha



On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Nathan Hill <nathanwhill at gmail.com> wrote:

  Dear Historical Linguists,

  In a paper about Tibetan I am criticizing someone for proposing that
  the same segment became one thing in nouns and another thing in verbs.
  My neogrammarian heart tells me that sound changes are aware of
  phonetic environments only and not part of speech categories. Such a
  thing is thus only possible if verbs are phonetically different than
  nouns in a systematic way (which is of course possible).

  Anyhow, a reviewer tells me that proto-Uto-Aztecan initial *p becomes
  zero in Nahuatl nouns but is preserved in verbs and cites the pair
  (.-tl "water" vs -p.ca "to wash"). The reviewer does not cite a
  discussion of this and I am totally at sea in the Uto-Aztecan
  literature. But, if this is an uncontroversial part of Uto-Aztecan
  historical phonology surely it has given rise to the same
  methodological concerns that I raise (sound change should apply
  blindly).

  I would be very grateful for any discussion of this or advice on
  treatments of this question in literature.

  with gratitude,
  Nathan
  _______________________________________________
  Histling-l mailing list
  Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
  https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l




-- 

Alexander Vovin
Professor of East Asian Languages and Literatures
Department of East Asian Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at Manoa, USA
========================
iustitiam magni facite, infirmos protegite



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

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From rgyalrongskad at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 11:34:22 2012
From: rgyalrongskad at gmail.com (Guillaume Jacques)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 12:34:22 +0100
Subject: Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <mailman.171.1354298423.3465.histling-l@mailman.rice.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.123422.0100.RGYALRONGSKAD@GMAIL.COM>

> I would be very grateful for any discussion of this or advice on
> treatments of this question in literature.
>

This phonetic change in Nahuatl is discussed by Campbell and Langacker
1978, part II (in International Journal of American Linguistics), p.201, ft
43. I think that they were the first to propose a morphological
conditioning for the loss of initial *p- (preservation only in verbs and
some kinship terms, because they are generally prefixed and therefore *p is
not word-initial in at least part of the paradigm).



-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://xiang.free.fr

http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/export_listeperso_xml.php?url_id=0000000003849
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From lass at iafrica.com  Sat Dec  1 12:36:39 2012
From: lass at iafrica.com (Roger Lass)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 14:36:39 +0200
Subject: FW:  Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CAAzt3zaPndOr_tkY-4urrq03pa_mkJPyM8WrXSyKinDgw4oc=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.143639.0200.LASS@IAFRICA.COM>

 

 

From: Guillaume Jacques [mailto:rgyalrongskad at gmail.com] 
Sent: 01 December 2012 01:57 PM
To: Roger Lass
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7

 

Dear professor Lass,

 

I think that your message was sent only to me, you may need to send it again to the list histling-l at mailman.rice.edu

 

Best regards,

 

Guillaume Jacques

2012/12/1 Roger Lass <lass at iafrica.com>

Just another remark on something that might belong here. There is a change that occurs in many Middle English dialects, where the OE past participle prefix ge- [je] < [i], spelled i or y. It can also delete, but when it remains after about the 13th century it occurs only in that form. It persists variably up to at least the 17th century, usually spelled y, as in yclept ?called? < OE ge-cleopod. No other instances of [je] do this as far as I know, so the change is not only restricted to a particular morphological category but to one member of the category. There are also cases of metathesis and epenthesis in Middle English restricted only to two lexical items, and at least one sound change in Irish that is restricted to one item. I can provide references on those two cases if anybody is interested.

RL

 

From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Guillaume Jacques
Sent: 01 December 2012 01:34 PM
To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7

 

 

 

I would be very grateful for any discussion of this or advice on
treatments of this question in literature.

 

This phonetic change in Nahuatl is discussed by Campbell and Langacker 1978, part II (in International Journal of American Linguistics), p.201, ft 43. I think that they were the first to propose a morphological conditioning for the loss of initial *p- (preservation only in verbs and some kinship terms, because they are generally prefixed and therefore *p is not word-initial in at least part of the paradigm).

 

 

 

-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://xiang.free.fr
 http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/export_listeperso_xml.php?url_id=0000000003849





 

-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://xiang.free.fr
 http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/export_listeperso_xml.php?url_id=0000000003849

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From mltarpent at hotmail.com  Sat Dec  1 15:12:14 2012
From: mltarpent at hotmail.com (Marie-Lucie Tarpent)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 11:12:14 -0400
Subject: conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <085D195D6A5A435080C03E3E5EC4A984@PaoloPC>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.111214.0400.MLTARPENT@HOTMAIL.COM>


Hello,

Here is another counterexample to the absolute rigidity of a phonetic process, from the Nisqa'a language (British Columbia, Canada):  a -t pronominal suffix (3rd sg) is phonologically deleted before a "connective" (consisting of a fricative "s" or "L" (lateral)) under most conditions), but with one exception, as shown below:  (all ex's here use the 'non-determinate' connective =L, used before most nouns; transcription is phonemic):

Examples in (1) show the most common type of transitive clause (here introduced by an AUX):  the connective is morphosyntactically part of the noun phrase  but phonologically attached to the previous word:

(1) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L hanaq'=L kwila             'The woman is/was making the [traditional] cape/blanket' 
PROG.AUX=3ERG make[-3]=CONN woman=CONN blanket

(1a) Yukw=t jap-t                                         'She is/was making it'

(1aa) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L kwila                         'She is/was making the blanket'
(1ab) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L hanaq'                      'The woman is/was making it'

In (1aa) and (1ab), only the semantics (and, in speech, lesser stress on the subject) indicate whether the noun is subject or object (if there might be ambiguity, both nouns would be mentioned in the sentence, as in (1)).

In (1b) the suffix appears in front of a following q (since only =s and =L cause it to delete), but the postclitic morpheme ==qat 'quotative, hearsay' loses its own final t before the following connective (but the deleting rule does not apply if the phoneme t is part of a previous word):

1b) Yukw=t jap-t==qa[t]=L hanaq'=L kwila   'I hear(d) that the woman is was making the blanket'  
                        ==hearsay

1c) Yukw=t jap-t==qat                                 ''I hear(d) she was making it


Examples in (2) illustrate another type of clause ("predicate-focused"), where the [t] is preserved to indicate the pronominal subject:

(2)  Jap-?-[t]=L hanaq'=L kwila                     'The woman MADE the blanket' (eg not bought it)
    make-NOMZ-[3]                                    (lit The blanket is what the woman MADE, ... the woman's MAKING) 

(2a)  Jap-?-t                                               'She MADE it'

Compare (2aa) and (2ab) with (1aa) and (1ab) above:  here the suffix -t is preserved phonologically when the noun it refers to is not mentioned in the sentence:

(2aa) Jap-?-t=L kwila                                     'She MADE the blanket'
(2ab) Jap-?-[-t]=L hanaq'                               'The woman MADE it'

Only the grammatical difference, in this particular type of clause, justifies the phonological preservation of the suffix. 

(As in the (1) examples, addition of ==qat would make the -t appear in both sentences).   

From: paoram at unipv.it
To: sashavovin at gmail.com; nathanwhill at gmail.com
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 12:18:31 +0100
CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl




Nathan Hill  wrote:


  ?Dear Historical Linguists. [...]My 
  neogrammarian heart tells me that sound changes are aware of phonetic 
  environments only and not part of speech categories.?
  I have high respect for the Neogrammarians, 
  but the statement above is a very strong one. It amounts to separate 
  completely phonetics from grammar and syntax (or morphoyntax). If, say, a 
  derivational suffix comes to modify the final part of a verbal root 
  we can have a new basis in the word 
  formation rule. For instance OGk. Nom. g?la ?milk?, Genit. 
  g?lak(t)os observes the rule that no OGk. word can end by a  
  stop consonant. This induces the morphologically bound sound change ?k > 0 
  in the Nomin. A rule that does not apply to words such as galakt?zo 
  ?I?m breast-feeded?, galaktok?mos ?shepherd? etc. .On 
  its turn gala-, and not galak-,can be the basis form for compounds such as 
  galathen?s ?suckling child?.
 
Best.
 
Paolo
 
??????????????????????????????????????????????
Prof.Paolo 
Ramat
Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS )
Direttore del 
Centro "Lingue d'Europa: tipologia, storia e sociolinguistica" 
(LETiSS)
Palazzo del Broletto - Piazza della Vittoria

27100 
Pavia
tel. ++390382375811
fax ++390382375899


 

From: Alexander Vovin 
Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 8:49 AM
To: Nathan Hill 
Cc: histling-l 
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in 
Nahuatl
 
Dear 
Nathan,

Very roughly speaking, but nouns and verbs behave very 
differently in this respect in Japanese. Even within the verbal paradigm, older 
grammaticalizations are different from more recent, although they can be traced 
to very similar phonological forms, e,g., the paradigmaic form of the verb yom- 
'to 
count/read'

                                         
Old Japanese        Late Middle 
Japanese                         
Modern 
Japanese
perfective                          
yo2mi1taru            
yomitaru                                              
yoNda
desiderative                      
_____                    
yomitai                                                
yomitai

Desiderative is much younger form than the perfective, and 
although both are essentially identical phonologically. they show two very 
different ref;exes in MJ.

Hope this helps,

Sasha



On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Nathan Hill <nathanwhill at gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Historical Linguists,

In a paper about Tibetan I 
  am criticizing someone for proposing that
the same segment became one thing 
  in nouns and another thing in verbs.
My neogrammarian heart tells me that 
  sound changes are aware of
phonetic environments only and not part of 
  speech categories. Such a
thing is thus only possible if verbs are 
  phonetically different than
nouns in a systematic way (which is of course 
  possible).

Anyhow, a reviewer tells me that proto-Uto-Aztecan initial 
  *p becomes
zero in Nahuatl nouns but is preserved in verbs and cites the 
  pair
(.-tl "water" vs -p.ca "to 
  wash"). The reviewer does not cite a
discussion of this and I am totally at 
  sea in the Uto-Aztecan
literature. But, if this is an uncontroversial part 
  of Uto-Aztecan
historical phonology surely it has given rise to the 
  same
methodological concerns that I raise (sound change should 
  apply
blindly).

I would be very grateful for any discussion of this 
  or advice on
treatments of this question in literature.

with 
  gratitude,
Nathan
_______________________________________________
Histling-l 
  mailing list
Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l


-- 

Alexander Vovin
Professor of East Asian Languages 
and Literatures
Department of East Asian Languages and 
Literatures
University of Hawai'i at Manoa, 
USA
========================
iustitiam magni facite, infirmos 
protegite



_______________________________________________
Histling-l mailing 
list
Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l





Questa informativa ? inserita in automatico dal sistema al fine esclusivo della realizzazione dei fini istituzionali dell'ente.
Diventa anche tu sponsor dei nostri ricercatori. Scegli di destinare il 5 per mille all?Universit? di Pavia: offrirai nuove opportunit? alla ricerca, ai giovani e al territorio. Un gesto che non costa nulla e costruisce tanto. C.F. dell?Universit? di Pavia 80007270186.
Please note that the above message is addressed only to individuals filing Italian income tax returns.
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From lameen at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 15:38:08 2012
From: lameen at gmail.com (Lameen Souag)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 16:38:08 +0100
Subject: Histling-l Digest, Vol 68, Issue 2
In-Reply-To: <mailman.67780.1354374744.7799.histling-l@mailman.rice.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.163808.0100.LAMEEN@GMAIL.COM>

In many modern Arabic varieties, final short vowels are preserved only
in personal pronouns.  For example, in Algerian Arabic (compared to
Classical):

'anta > nta "you m. sg."
'anti > nti "you f. sg."
huwa > huwwa "he"
hiya > hiyya "she"

vs.

kataba > kt?b "he wrote"
'ayna > win "where"
'amsi > yam?s "yesterday".

(Most final short vowels were case/mood markers, but in all three of
these examples they were invariant and obligatory in Classical
Arabic.)

I'm not aware of any work on this, but I assume it relates to
frequency and functional load.

Regards
Lameen Souag

> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Nathan Hill <nathanwhill at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Historical Linguists,
>
> In a paper about Tibetan I
>   am criticizing someone for proposing that
> the same segment became one thing
>   in nouns and another thing in verbs.
> My neogrammarian heart tells me that
>   sound changes are aware of
> phonetic environments only and not part of
>   speech categories. Such a
> thing is thus only possible if verbs are
>   phonetically different than
> nouns in a systematic way (which is of course
>   possible).
>
> Anyhow, a reviewer tells me that proto-Uto-Aztecan initial
>   *p becomes
> zero in Nahuatl nouns but is preserved in verbs and cites the
>   pair
> (.-tl "water" vs -p.ca "to
>   wash"). The reviewer does not cite a
> discussion of this and I am totally at
>   sea in the Uto-Aztecan
> literature. But, if this is an uncontroversial part
>   of Uto-Aztecan
> historical phonology surely it has given rise to the
>   same
> methodological concerns that I raise (sound change should
>   apply
> blindly).
>
> I would be very grateful for any discussion of this
>   or advice on
> treatments of this question in literature.
>
> with
>   gratitude,
> Nathan
> _______________________________________________
> Histling-l
>   mailing list
> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
_______________________________________________
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Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l

From nathanwhill at gmail.com  Sat Dec  1 15:53:25 2012
From: nathanwhill at gmail.com (Nathan Hill)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 15:53:25 +0000
Subject: conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <BAY171-W125517A90EEAA479C340B0A6420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.155325.0000.NATHANWHILL@GMAIL.COM>

Dear List,

I would like to thank everyone for the examples of analogical pressure
resisting or undoing phonetically conditioned sound changes. (I am
surprised that the Greek -s future did not come up). I would
particularly like to thank Guillaume Jacques for pointing me to the
article by Campbell and to Magnus Hansen for drawing my attention to
Karen Dakin's Evolucion Fonologica del Proto-Nahuatl, which have
satisfied my question about Uto-Aztecan *p-.

Nathan
_______________________________________________
Histling-l mailing list
Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l


From bjoseph at ling.ohio-state.edu  Sat Dec  1 16:17:51 2012
From: bjoseph at ling.ohio-state.edu (Brian Joseph)
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 11:17:51 -0500
Subject: conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl
In-Reply-To: <BAY171-W125517A90EEAA479C340B0A6420@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <SAT.1.DEC.2012.111751.0500.>

This discussion of an important aspect of historical methodology is all
very interesting, but (without critiquing any of the examples presented
except for the Greek final -n case, on which see below) I would urge
everyone to read the excellent review article by Hans Henrich Hock on
Raimo Anttila's 1972 textbook on historical linguistics; the review was
published in Language in 1976 (volume 52.1, pp. 202-220).  What is
especially important in it is contained in pp. 211-220 as Hock offers a
detailed critique of Anttila's many examples (actually, Hock shows,
putative examples) of grammatically conditioned sound change.  Hock
succeeds in proposing compelling accounts in each case that involve
phonetically conditioned sound change coupled with analogy (or sometimes
other processes of change such as borrowing) that for the most part are
more explanatory than a grammatical conditioning account.  I would suggest
that the same strategy could be employed for the cases brought up in the
past several messages that started with Nathan Hill's query (in this way,
I am solidly with Nathan in not wanting to give up the strongest version
of the Neogrammarian stance on sound change, not without a fight, so to
speak).

As for the Greek, Dr. Karatsareas is correct, as far as his data goes, but
it is very likely that the -n# in the genitive plural is either a
restoration from learned Greek (always an issue in dealing with Greek) or
else restored as a sandhi variant (e.g. if originally preserved before
vowels and lost before (certain) consonants).  I base this on the fact
that 19th century sources, especially Albert Thumb's Handbook of the
Modern Greek
Vernacular, originally published in German in the 1890s but known widely
in its 1912 English translation), give the genitive plural regularly as
being in -o (<-?>, i.e. Greek omega) or -one (<-???>); the -o variant
suggests loss of -n#, and the -one variant suggests the accretion of an -e
from a following word (a sort of resegmentation), though, as I mentioned,
restoration from the learned language, essentially borrowing from a
diglossically higher register perhaps even mediated by the orthography (in
which case it could be viewed as borrowing from the written language)
cannot be dismissed easily in the Greek sociolinguistic context.

As I see it, what is at stake in allowing nonphonetic conditioning of
sound change is that with only phonetic conditioning we have a basis for
understanding how sound change can get started, how it originates (the
point of actuation, some might call it) whereas -- following Hock -- if we
give up phonetic conditioning, we have no explanatory basis for the
actuation.  And letting in grammatical conditioning in even one case (as
Nathan seems to realize) would mean that there would never be a case in
which we could rule it out; it would always be an unexplanatory
possibility for the starting point of a sound change.  If anyone is
interested, I lay these issues out more fully in my 1999 paper
"Utterance-Finality: Framing the Issues", in B. Palek, O. Fujimura, &. B.
Joseph (eds.) Proceedings of LP ?98 (4th Linguistics and Phonetics
Conference). Prague: Charles University Press (1999), Vol. 2: 3-13
(downloadable as #138 from the publication list on my website,
www.ling.osu.edu/~bjoseph).

So count me as a strict Neogrammarian, a badge I am proud to wear!

--Brian

Brian D. Joseph
The Ohio State University


>
> Hello,
>
> Here is another counterexample to the absolute rigidity of a phonetic
> process, from the Nisqa'a language (British Columbia, Canada):  a -t
> pronominal suffix (3rd sg) is phonologically deleted before a "connective"
> (consisting of a fricative "s" or "L" (lateral)) under most conditions),
> but with one exception, as shown below:  (all ex's here use the
> 'non-determinate' connective =L, used before most nouns; transcription is
> phonemic):
>
> Examples in (1) show the most common type of transitive clause (here
> introduced by an AUX):  the connective is morphosyntactically part of the
> noun phrase  but phonologically attached to the previous word:
>
> (1) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L hanaq'=L kwila             'The woman is/was making
> the [traditional] cape/blanket'
> PROG.AUX=3ERG make[-3]=CONN woman=CONN blanket
>
> (1a) Yukw=t jap-t                                         'She is/was
> making it'
>
> (1aa) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L kwila                         'She is/was making
> the blanket'
> (1ab) Yukw=t jap[-t]=L hanaq'                      'The woman is/was
> making it'
>
> In (1aa) and (1ab), only the semantics (and, in speech, lesser stress on
> the subject) indicate whether the noun is subject or object (if there
> might be ambiguity, both nouns would be mentioned in the sentence, as in
> (1)).
>
> In (1b) the suffix appears in front of a following q (since only =s and =L
> cause it to delete), but the postclitic morpheme ==qat 'quotative,
> hearsay' loses its own final t before the following connective (but the
> deleting rule does not apply if the phoneme t is part of a previous
> word):
>
> 1b) Yukw=t jap-t==qa[t]=L hanaq'=L kwila   'I hear(d) that the woman is
> was making the blanket'
>                         ==hearsay
>
> 1c) Yukw=t jap-t==qat                                 ''I hear(d) she was
> making it
>
>
> Examples in (2) illustrate another type of clause ("predicate-focused"),
> where the [t] is preserved to indicate the pronominal subject:
>
> (2)  Jap-?-[t]=L hanaq'=L kwila                     'The woman MADE the
> blanket' (eg not bought it)
>     make-NOMZ-[3]                                    (lit The blanket is
> what the woman MADE, ... the woman's MAKING)
>
> (2a)  Jap-?-t                                               'She MADE it'
>
> Compare (2aa) and (2ab) with (1aa) and (1ab) above:  here the suffix -t is
> preserved phonologically when the noun it refers to is not mentioned in
> the sentence:
>
> (2aa) Jap-?-t=L kwila                                     'She MADE the
> blanket'
> (2ab) Jap-?-[-t]=L hanaq'                               'The woman MADE
> it'
>
> Only the grammatical difference, in this particular type of clause,
> justifies the phonological preservation of the suffix.
>
> (As in the (1) examples, addition of ==qat would make the -t appear in
> both sentences).
>
> From: paoram at unipv.it
> To: sashavovin at gmail.com; nathanwhill at gmail.com
> Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2012 12:18:31 +0100
> CC: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in Nahuatl
>
>
>
>
> Nathan Hill  wrote:
>
>
>   ?Dear Historical Linguists. [...]My
>   neogrammarian heart tells me that sound changes are aware of phonetic
>   environments only and not part of speech categories.?
>   I have high respect for the Neogrammarians,
>   but the statement above is a very strong one. It amounts to separate
>   completely phonetics from grammar and syntax (or morphoyntax). If, say,
> a
>   derivational suffix comes to modify the final part of a verbal root
>   we can have a new basis in the word
>   formation rule. For instance OGk. Nom. g?la ?milk?, Genit.
>   g?lak(t)os observes the rule that no OGk. word can end by a
>   stop consonant. This induces the morphologically bound sound change ?k >
> 0
>   in the Nomin. A rule that does not apply to words such as galakt?zo
>   ?I?m breast-feeded?, galaktok?mos ?shepherd? etc. .On
>   its turn gala-, and not galak-,can be the basis form for compounds such
> as
>   galathen?s ?suckling child?.
>
> Best.
>
> Paolo
>
> ??????????????????????????????????????????????
> Prof.Paolo
> Ramat
> Istituto Universitario di Studi Superiori (IUSS )
> Direttore del
> Centro "Lingue d'Europa: tipologia, storia e sociolinguistica"
> (LETiSS)
> Palazzo del Broletto - Piazza della Vittoria
>
> 27100
> Pavia
> tel. ++390382375811
> fax ++390382375899
>
>
>
>
> From: Alexander Vovin
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 8:49 AM
> To: Nathan Hill
> Cc: histling-l
> Subject: Re: [Histling-l] conditioning of Uto-Aztecan *p in
> Nahuatl
>
> Dear
> Nathan,
>
> Very roughly speaking, but nouns and verbs behave very
> differently in this respect in Japanese. Even within the verbal paradigm,
> older
> grammaticalizations are different from more recent, although they can be
> traced
> to very similar phonological forms, e,g., the paradigmaic form of the verb
> yom-
> 'to
> count/read'
>
>
> Old Japanese        Late Middle
> Japanese
> Modern
> Japanese
> perfective
> yo2mi1taru
> yomitaru
> yoNda
> desiderative
> _____
> yomitai
> yomitai
>
> Desiderative is much younger form than the perfective, and
> although both are essentially identical phonologically. they show two very
> different ref;exes in MJ.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Sasha
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Nathan Hill <nathanwhill at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Historical Linguists,
>
> In a paper about Tibetan I
>   am criticizing someone for proposing that
> the same segment became one thing
>   in nouns and another thing in verbs.
> My neogrammarian heart tells me that
>   sound changes are aware of
> phonetic environments only and not part of
>   speech categories. Such a
> thing is thus only possible if verbs are
>   phonetically different than
> nouns in a systematic way (which is of course
>   possible).
>
> Anyhow, a reviewer tells me that proto-Uto-Aztecan initial
>   *p becomes
> zero in Nahuatl nouns but is preserved in verbs and cites the
>   pair
> (.-tl "water" vs -p.ca "to
>   wash"). The reviewer does not cite a
> discussion of this and I am totally at
>   sea in the Uto-Aztecan
> literature. But, if this is an uncontroversial part
>   of Uto-Aztecan
> historical phonology surely it has given rise to the
>   same
> methodological concerns that I raise (sound change should
>   apply
> blindly).
>
> I would be very grateful for any discussion of this
>   or advice on
> treatments of this question in literature.
>
> with
>   gratitude,
> Nathan
> _______________________________________________
> Histling-l
>   mailing list
> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>
>
> --
>
> Alexander Vovin
> Professor of East Asian Languages
> and Literatures
> Department of East Asian Languages and
> Literatures
> University of Hawai'i at Manoa,
> USA
> ========================
> iustitiam magni facite, infirmos
> protegite
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Histling-l mailing
> list
> Histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
> https://mailman.rice.edu/mailman/listinfo/histling-l
>
>
>
>
>
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From ylfenn at earthlink.net  Sun Dec  2 09:32:53 2012
From: ylfenn at earthlink.net (Martin Huld)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 04:32:53 -0500
Subject: FW:  Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7
Message-ID: <SUN.2.DEC.2012.043253.0500.YLFENN@EARTHLINK.NET>

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From lass at iafrica.com  Sun Dec  2 10:05:06 2012
From: lass at iafrica.com (Roger Lass)
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2012 12:05:06 +0200
Subject: FW:  Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <9114101.1354440773892.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.2.DEC.2012.120506.0200.LASS@IAFRICA.COM>

Right, it is in fact whichever prefix ge-, if they?re not all instance of the perfective. I was a bit sloppy there. Shouldn?t answer emails at night.

 

The loss of ?n in strong past participles is very variable, and many verbs have two forms, depending on region or style. Thus the famous got/gotten, in my speech hid ~ hidden (rarely), but in the rest of the class I strong verbs a lot of unpredictability, bite/bitten drive/driven but shit(e)/shit, never *shitten as far as I know in any modern variety, though Chaucer uses it as an attributive (I think the line is ?A clene shepherd and a shitten shepe?), though it was around at least as late as the `14th century. These may not be properly morphologically conditioned sound changes but rather retweakings of morphology. The general behaviour of different affixes, even if phonologically the same, can show differences, and one or more change affecting the same segment-type can occur in the same text.

 

The point about loss of ?n in nasal-stem class III verbs is interesting; I?d never noticed that before.

R

 

From: Martin Huld [mailto:ylfenn at earthlink.net] 
Sent: 02 December 2012 11:33 AM
To: Roger Lass; histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] FW: Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7

 

There is also OE genoh > ME ynow, ynogh > NE enough and OE gewis > ME ywis 'surely'; these would seem to indicate that the conditioning factor was phonological, ie in unstressed syllables immediately before a stressed syllable.  While most of these examples would come from the perfect participles, there were other instances.  

Consider the fate of OE final [n].  It was lost in NE (and already in ONorthumbrian and OFris.) in the infinitive and the nominative plural of n-stem nouns; OE writan > NE write; naman > NE name; but it is partially preserved in the perfect participle OE (ge)writen, (ge)giefen  > NE written, given.  OFris.  writa, nama, Now it is certainly subject to later deletion if there is another [n] in the stem ie OE (ge)funden, gesungen > NE found, sung.   

-----Original Message----- 
From: Roger Lass 
Sent: Dec 1, 2012 4:36 AM 
To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu 
Subject: [Histling-l] FW: Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7 




 

 

From: Guillaume Jacques [mailto:rgyalrongskad at gmail.com] 
Sent: 01 December 2012 01:57 PM
To: Roger Lass
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7

 

Dear professor Lass,

 

I think that your message was sent only to me, you may need to send it again to the list histling-l at mailman.rice.edu

 

Best regards,

 

Guillaume Jacques

2012/12/1 Roger Lass <lass at iafrica.com>

Just another remark on something that might belong here. There is a change that occurs in many Middle English dialects, where the OE past participle prefix ge- [je] < [i], spelled i or y. It can also delete, but when it remains after about the 13th century it occurs only in that form. It persists variably up to at least the 17th century, usually spelled y, as in yclept ?called? < OE ge-cleopod. No other instances of [je] do this as far as I know, so the change is not only restricted to a particular morphological category but to one member of the category. There are also cases of metathesis and epenthesis in Middle English restricted only to two lexical items, and at least one sound change in Irish that is restricted to one item. I can provide references on those two cases if anybody is interested.

RL

 

From: histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu [mailto:histling-l-bounces at mailman.rice.edu] On Behalf Of Guillaume Jacques
Sent: 01 December 2012 01:34 PM
To: histling-l at mailman.rice.edu
Subject: Re: [Histling-l] Histling-l Digest, Vol 67, Issue 7

 

 

 

I would be very grateful for any discussion of this or advice on
treatments of this question in literature.

 

This phonetic change in Nahuatl is discussed by Campbell and Langacker 1978, part II (in International Journal of American Linguistics), p.201, ft 43. I think that they were the first to propose a morphological conditioning for the loss of initial *p- (preservation only in verbs and some kinship terms, because they are generally prefixed and therefore *p is not word-initial in at least part of the paradigm).

 

 

 

-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://xiang.free.fr
 http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/export_listeperso_xml.php?url_id=0000000003849





 

-- 
Guillaume Jacques
CNRS (CRLAO) - INALCO
http://xiang.free.fr
 http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/export_listeperso_xml.php?url_id=0000000003849

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From bdc3 at rice.edu  Mon Dec 10 13:07:08 2012
From: bdc3 at rice.edu (Benjamin Chauvette)
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 07:07:08 -0600
Subject: Final CfP: Rice Working Papers in Linguistics. Deadline this
 Friday.
Message-ID: <MON.10.DEC.2012.070708.0600.>

RICE WORKING PAPERS IN LINGUISTICS, VOLUME 4
FINAL CALL FOR SUBMISSIONS
DEADLINE: Friday, December 14, 2012

Rice Working Papers in Linguistics is currently soliciting submissions 
for its fourth volume. Please see the guidelines below and consider 
submitting your work to the editors at <rwpl at rice.edu>.

===============

Rice Working Papers in Linguistics (RWPL; ISSN 1944-0081) is a refereed, 
open-access online publication of the Rice Linguistics Society, with 
support from the Department of Linguistics at Rice University in 
Houston, TX.

RWPL publishes working papers and squibs that emphasize functional, 
usage-based approaches to the study of language. The publication focuses 
on issues related to empirical aspects of linguistics. To that end, we 
especially welcome methodological and ethical discussions, 
sociolinguistic and areal survey reports, field reports, and project 
post-mortems. Presentations of intriguing or difficult data, 
particularly ones that merit further research, are also encouraged.

With the exception of ESL/TESOL and speech-language pathology, 
submissions in almost all subfields of linguistics will be considered 
for publication. Acceptable subfields include, but are not limited to 
cognitive/ functional linguistics, documentary and descriptive 
linguistics, language revitalization, sociolinguistics (including 
sociophonetics), discourse and corpus linguistics, language typology and 
universals, language change and grammaticalization, laboratory phonetics 
and phonology, language processing, and psycholinguistics.

Information about past volumes of the working papers is available at 
<http://rls.rice.edu/rwpl/>.

---------------

Submissions must meet the following minimum style requirements:

* Maximum 30 pages in length, not including references,
appendices, tables, and figures
* 12pt font size, using one of the following typefaces:
- Linux Libertine
- FreeSerif
- Liberation Serif
- Times New Roman
* One inch (1?) margins on all sides
* Letter sized paper (8.5?x11?)
* Double spaced throughout

In addition, to ensure a fair review process, all information that could 
reveal a paper's authorship must be removed from both its content and 
metadata prior to its submission.

Accepted submissions will be required to follow the RWPL Style Sheet, 
available at <http://rls.rice.edu/rwpl/style-sheet/>.

---------------

RWPL accepts only electronic submissions, which must be emailed to the 
editors at <rwpl at rice.edu>. The body of the email must contain the 
following information:

* Title of paper
* Author name(s)
* Author affiliation(s)
* Author contact information
* Acknowledgments (if desired)

All submissions must also attach the following items as separate files 
to the email:

* A document containing the title of the paper, at least
3 keywords, and a maximum 350 word abstract
* A copy of the paper in one of the following formats:
- Word 97/2000/XP/2003 (.doc)
- Word 2007/2010 (.docx)
- OpenDocument (.odt)
- LaTeX (.tex)
* A copy of the paper as a PDF


The deadline for submissions is Friday, December 14, 2012.

Questions regarding the submissions process or style requirements may be 
addressed to the editors via email at <rwpl at rice.edu>.

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From d.t.t.haug at ifikk.uio.no  Mon Dec 17 21:11:41 2012
From: d.t.t.haug at ifikk.uio.no (Dag Haug)
Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2012 22:11:41 +0100
Subject: ICHL in Oslo 2013 Second call for papers
Message-ID: <MON.17.DEC.2012.221141.0100.D.T.T.HAUG@IFIKK.UIO.NO>

Dear all,

We have now added information about the ICHL 21 workshops on our web page:

http://www.hf.uio.no/ifikk/english/research/events/ichl2013/workshops/

The call for papers is open and you can submit papers to the 
general session or to one of the workshops via our EasyChair page: 

http://www.easychair.org/conferences/?conf=ichl21


Key dates for this event are as follows:

February 1, 2013 - deadline for submission of abstracts
beginning of April 2013 - notification
May 1, 2013 - deadline for registration
August 5-9, 2013 - conference

More information on our web site: 
http://www.hf.uio.no/ifikk/english/research/events/ichl2013/

With best wishes,
Dag Haug


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